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twisterfencing · 03-10-2006, 12:44 AM

For all of us super detail folks out there, Uhlmann has decided to let us know the actual screw size on they're foil barrels.

Here is the email that was sent to me. The age old question is now answered.

Hello Gary,

After all our email correspondence we are pleased to inform you on the detail requested.

Thread size is: M 1,7

We hope this information is helpful for you and remain with

best regards,

Annette Pfeiffer

Uhlmann Fechtsport

Tel. 0049 7392 9697-16

Fax 0049 7392 9697-79

Purple Fencer · 03-10-2006, 01:14 AM

YAY!!! Now to find a tap that %#$^#% small!!

Moniteur · 03-10-2006, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

YAY!!! Now to find a tap that %#$^#% small!!

Reference taps, how about:
https://www.micro-tools.com/store/Ma...?ItemCode=TM15
or
http://www.sssmodels.com/shoptools/shoptools.html looks like they sell individual items, in three different types..

Looks like there is only one pitch available, .35, and the hole itself would take a 1.3mm drill

Mergs · 03-12-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

YAY!!! Now to find a tap that %#$^#% small!!

Oh, ye of little faith!!!! If I can find a 2mm x .25, I surely can find a 1.7mm x .2 (I doubt that it is .35, just because the epee screw is so much finer), which means if you go back to the original thread.................................... I WIN!

JEC · 03-12-2006, 10:10 AM

Now, how about Leon Paul screws?

Purple Fencer · 03-12-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

Oh, ye of little faith!!!! If I can find a 2mm x .25, I surely can find a 1.7mm x .2 (I doubt that it is .35, just because the epee screw is so much finer), which means if you go back to the original thread.................................... I WIN!

Clarification.....Gary says it's not 1.7mm.....it M 1 x 0.07 ....Uhlmann listed it as 1 (comma) 7.

MTD · 03-12-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Clarification.....Gary says it's not 1.7mm.....it M 1 x 0.07 ....Uhlmann listed it as 1 (comma) 7.

Two clarifications here -- based entirely on what is written in this thread, there is insufficient information.

Gary writes "M1,7" with the comma. What punctuation convention is he using? Is he using a United States convention of comma separators and decimal points (meaning he told us it was Metric, with a first descriptor of one and a second descriptor of seven, presumably really seven-tenths)? Or, is he using a European convention (or, more likely, choosing to preserve a European convention used by Uhlmann) of period separators and decimal commas (meaning he told us it was metric with an only descriptor of one and seven-tenths)?

And, what is the pitch of the thread?

If the width is one and seven-tenths, the pitch is ambiguous. There are two families of metric threading, coarse and fine (analogous to the United States's NC and NF threads). So far I've only notices M1.7 threads with .35 pitch, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a single different pitch available in the same width.

If the width is one and the pitch is "seven", what is "seven"? Seven millimeters? That's not a screw specification, that's a brad with slightly helical grooves along it! Seven-tenths of a millimeter (i.e., decimal point/decimal comma omitted as obvious)? I don't think so either. That's an awfully coarse thread compared to the visual appearance of Uhlmann foil screws. I can't give you a logical way to interpret "seven" if Sam's conjecture is right is right. But, I'm cheating here and referring to my memory when I was saying that this thread, by itself, is ambiguous.

So, Mergs needs to keep the celebratory champagne on ice a little while longer while the win is certified despite the challenge from Sam.

MTD · 03-12-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEC

Now, how about Leon Paul screws?

I thought this was was (implicitly) already settled. Aren't Leon Paul foil screws identical to Leon Paul épée screws? Aren't Leon Paul épée screws the same threading as all common épée screws (but a reputation for being cut closer to that spec than other screws so a Leon Paul épée screw will often hold in a hole where the maker's own screw no longer holds)? This means that Leon Paul foil screws are the threading which épée screws are known to have.

And, what is that threading? I could have sworn there was another thread where this information was revealed, but in a quick glance I can't find it. Maybe it was from an actual voice conversation with Gary instead. Anyway, it's a standard metric M2. Don't ask me off the top of my head what that means about the pitch. At worst you'll find only two easy-to-get M2 pitches, and one will be obviously the wrong one.

twisterfencing · 03-12-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTD

Gary writes "M1,7" with the comma. What punctuation convention is he using? .

MTD, what I did is copy the entire email from Uhlmann and posted just as I received it. You are looking at the entire email that was sent to me in its orginal format. It's not a Gary writes, its an Uhlmann writes.

Gary Spruill

Mergs · 03-12-2006, 05:09 PM

It is the European format to use a comma in this case, not a decimal point as we un-washed masses of the not nearly sophisticated Americans, Canadians, etc. do. My actual measurements of foil screws is 1.5ishmm. I say that because I can't get a real accurate measurement due the equiment I have. But it is close enough to know that 1.7mm is the nominal screw size, and I know that it isn't a .35 pitch because the thread guage I have has that pitch, and it doesn't fit, ergo, I stand by my 1.7mm x .20 thread size.

MTD · 03-12-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

... I know that it isn't a .35 pitch because the thread guage I have has that pitch, and it doesn't fit, ergo, I stand by my 1.7mm x .20 thread size.

Okay, I fetched what I think is a German screw. I’m not using German and am out of good known German replacement screws. So, I took one out of a barrel from a junk pile (running a minor risk that it's a German knock-off using a different threading).

Examined with the scanner at 600 ppi, the screw is 1.7 mm wide. The pitch is NOT .35. It is also NOT .2 either! It’s .25 instead.

If you want to cut a metric 1.7x0.25 thread, I found a die at http://chinatianxiang.com/index.asp and at http://www.sltt.com.cn/indexe.htm but no corresponding tap.

twisterfencing · 03-12-2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTD

Examined with the scanner at 600 ppi, the screw is 1.7 mm wide. The pitch is NOT .35. It is also NOT .2 either! It’s .25 instead.

MTD: This is the same pitch as the epee screew (Epee: M 2 x 0.25). Great Job of discovery! You are very correct in looking for a tap this size: may have to beg and plead Mike to get some cut for us.

Thanks again,

Gary

Purple Fencer · 03-13-2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisterfencing

MTD: This is the same pitch as the epee screew (Epee: M 2 x 0.25). Great Job of discovery! You are very correct in looking for a tap this size: may have to beg and plead Mike to get some cut for us.

Thanks again,

Gary

Ehhh....he's an armorer....just give him a Guiness and he'll be happy...

Mergs · 03-14-2006, 01:00 AM

1.7mm x .25?!?!??! Hmmmmm looks like a project for this weekend to verify! An easy enough way to test, though is to take an epee screw and match it to a foil screw and see if the threads fit together, like a screw gauge.

Purple Fencer · 03-14-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

1.7mm x .25?!?!??! Hmmmmm looks like a project for this weekend to verify! An easy enough way to test, though is to take an epee screw and match it to a foil screw and see if the threads fit together, like a screw gauge.

This looks like a job for SUPER Armorer!!!!!

That actually sounds close to right...if you remember my email to you about a 1.6 thread initially going in then binding up...

Figures, the sport would have strange sizes....if the foil tip was 3 x 0.6 instead of 3.5 x 0.6, I could buy the EXACT body cord screws I want already commercially available instead of having to pay to have them fabricated.

Ah well...

Gary...did you ever get word back from your guy in Texas on the size???

MTD · 03-14-2006, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

An easy enough way to test, though is to take an epee screw and match it to a foil screw and see if the threads fit together, like a screw gauge.

Oh, this insistence on verifying theories by checking ground truth gets so annoying.

I just tried the test. It verified.

image002.gif

I've seen prettier pictures, but what do you expect of a 600 dpi scanner, not a photomicrography setup?

twisterfencing · 03-14-2006, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Gary...did you ever get word back from your guy in Texas on the size???

Yes and no!
I have a reference number for the job! Yes, I had to pay them to look this up. They had to send the parts to MTS in AZ. They email me once a week to let me know that they have not forgotten me, yet no exact answer. I spoke with them today on the phone. They promised me a prompt answer this week. Right?

One comment the lady did tell me, Quote: this is the oddest size screw that I have ever seen! End Quote.
Well, I would not put it past Uhlmann to have some special screw size made up just so folks like us would be able to do what we are trying to do. Fix they're stuff! Maybe its more profitable to them to withhold the sizing so that they can sell more barrels? Who knows?

twisterfencing · 03-14-2006, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTD

Oh, this insistence on verifying theories by checking ground truth gets so annoying.

I just tried the test. It verified.

Attachment 1384

I've seen prettier pictures, but what do you expect of a 600 dpi scanner, not a photomicrography setup?

MTD,
Your too deep for me. Great Job!

DMOR · 03-14-2006, 02:55 AM

I just read this entire thread. Such attention to detail! I think you may all have (dare I say it?) a screw loose.

Seriously, as an owner of a German foil, your research could come in handy. And it was fun to read!

Purple Fencer · 03-14-2006, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisterfencing

Yes and no!
I have a reference number for the job! Yes, I had to pay them to look this up. They had to send the parts to MTS in AZ. They email me once a week to let me know that they have not forgotten me, yet no exact answer. I spoke with them today on the phone. They promised me a prompt answer this week. Right?

One comment the lady did tell me, Quote: this is the oddest size screw that I have ever seen! End Quote.
Well, I would not put it past Uhlmann to have some special screw size made up just so folks like us would be able to do what we are trying to do. Fix they're stuff! Maybe its more profitable to them to withhold the sizing so that they can sell more barrels? Who knows?

But the French screws are the same size, I think....i HAVE seen german screws in a French point...'course, that's why the thing wasn;t working too well...