Too small maskcord tab on Leon Paul sabre lame

[demon_fencer]

I just got my Leon Paul ultra light sabre lame in the mail and noticed one feature that is a major problem (according to some tournament armourers).

The tab on the back of the Leon Paul lame where you attach the mask cord is a loop of fabric about 1/3 of an inch wide. Almost everytime I've taken my current Infinity lame through weapons check at a NAC or regional tournament, the armourer has made some comment about how the tab doesn't meet the USFA regs about size but since I had sewn the sides down to make a "pocket", they let it slide.

Now have the rules changed again to allow the smaller tab (since Leon Paul is now the official supplier to the women's sabre team) or do I have to cut up an old lame to create a new maskcord tab? Also, if the answer is "yes", then is there a special rule that allows national team members to use non-compliant equipment but not the rest of us peons?

[yeoldearmourer]

According to the USFA website Duellist is the offical suppiler to the Women Sabre team and they have a contact with the USFA. And the rules have not change

[Inquartata]

No, the rule hasn't changed, I don't think. Whether it is strictly enforced is a matter of the tournament and the individual armorer you get at weapons check. I fenced for years in an Uhlmann lamé with a tab that was too small, then one year at Long Beach the armorers decided they just couldn't pass it. Had to sew an addition onto it on the spot.

Why the manufacturers insist on trying to save 2 cents by scrimping on that tab I don't know, but it seems to be the top-of-the-line ones who do it---my JL back-up lamé came with one that's plenty large enough...

[Purple Fencer]

*Sigh* yet another thing I'm working on....my lames will have the pocket...not the tab.

Y'know...if I'd just hit the damn lottery I'd have all my new stuff out in a few months!

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

*Sigh* yet another thing I'm working on....my lames will have the pocket...not the tab.

Y'know...if I'd just hit the damn lottery I'd have all my new stuff out in a few months!

No. If you hit the lottery you would get a hair transplant.

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Why the manufacturers insist on trying to save 2 cents by scrimping on that tab I don't know, but it seems to be the top-of-the-line ones who do it---my JL back-up lamé came with one that's plenty large enough...

Please think before making such statements! when cutting out garments the off cuts, which are thrown out, could make enough tabs to give one to each sabre fencers in the world. There is absolutely no question of trying to save money.

To be honest we have made our tabs the same sizes for ever, without problem or complaint. The need to be longer than 30 mm so that fencers can pick them up behind their neck. The regulations don't say if the material is conductive on both sides of the tab and whether it is a surface area they are referring too our tabs are about 12mm by 100 mm double sided to make a open tab 50 mm long or a surface area of 2400 millimeters square. Against a possible minimum conductive surface area from the regulations of 600 millimeters square.

But it is no problem we will make our tabs 8 mm wider and ever one will be happy.
Barry Paul

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Please think before making such statements, when cutting out garments the off cuts which are thrown out could make enough tabs to give one to each sabre fencers in the world. There is absolutely no question of trying to save money.

To be honest we have made our tabs the same sizes for ever, without problem or complaint. The need to be longer than 30 mm so that fencers can pick them up behind their neck. The regulations don't say if the material is conductive on both sides of the tab and whether it is a surface area they are referring too our tabs are about 12mm by 100 mm double sided to make a open tab 50 mm long or a surface area of 2400 millimeters square. Against a possible minim mum conductive surface area from the regulations of 600 millimeters square.

But it is no problem we will make out tabs 8 mm wider and ever one will be happy.
Barry Paul

But Barry, when the rule specifically state "The jacket must have a conductive flap, 2 cm x 3 cm in the middle of the back, just below the collar, to which the crocodile clip from the mask can be attached." and manufacturers make them too small, it gives the impression that the big guys are trying to save pennies....and this is only supprted by things like Uhlmann no longer putting a star washer under the screw on their foil retaining clips, which causes them to come apart more easily, or the retaining clip on a Prieur foil socket...which NEVER fit the way they;re supposed to and Prieur simply hasn't spent the money to correct it,

It's those seemingly itty bitty things that really irritate fencers over here.

And while I agree a larger tab would be easier to clip onto -- the ones on JL lame are enormous -- the rules DO state 2x3cm, and it gives the impression that the major manufacturers are flauinting the rules.

Some US armorers are now enforcing the rules more closely on things like the lame tab, lames too dark to allow the name to be read easily, the mask strap, the notch in some foil pads, etc. That put the fencer in the position of having to deal with or correct equipment that SHOULD'VE been made in accordance with the rules in the first place.

It shouldn't have to fall to newbies like me to correct the problems in gear from the big guys.

[yeoldearmourer]

`The US armourers sometimes doesn't used common sense in enfroce rules. I have see them fail lames at 6 ohms which is totally wrong because their meters can be off by more then 3 to 4 ohms. That why when I had my business at NACs I would question the accucry of there meters and I do have and carry with test equiepment to check meters with. I have found meters to be off by 4ohms majority was ditgil meters. They will check and fail things that would passed any other place.

[Inquartata]

Yes. I took my Infinity lamé to weapons check in Houston and it failed resistance everywhere except the back arm with the first armourer. But he recommended that I take it down the table to Joe Byrnes, and it passed with flying colors. Everyone has his own rig and method, and there is little consistency...

Barry, I really think you must choose: either it's stinginess, or it's laziness. The rule is clear enough, and if manufacturers do not comply with it---persistently---I cannot believe that they really think they're doing so. It's like Triplette sewing their labels onto the outside of lamés and manchettes: someone just isn't thinking things through.

Now, the things work just fine even when they're too small to conform to the material standards, and failing them at weapons check, making the fencer alter a brand new lamé before pasing it, is perhaps a bit anal. But a rule is a rule, and there's enough resentment to go around for both armourer and manufacturer when such things happen.

[N00bArmorer]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

But Barry, when the rule specifically state "The jacket must have a conductive flap, 2 cm x 3 cm in the middle of the back, just below the collar, to which the crocodile clip from the mask can be attached." and manufacturers make them too small, it gives the impression that the big guys are trying to save pennies....and this is only supprted by things like Uhlmann no longer putting a star washer under the screw on their foil retaining clips, which causes them to come apart more easily, or the retaining clip on a Prieur foil socket...which NEVER fit the way they;re supposed to and Prieur simply hasn't spent the money to correct it,

It's those seemingly itty bitty things that really irritate fencers over here.

And while I agree a larger tab would be easier to clip onto -- the ones on JL lame are enormous -- the rules DO state 2x3cm, and it gives the impression that the major manufacturers are flauinting the rules.

Some US armorers are now enforcing the rules more closely on things like the lame tab, lames too dark to allow the name to be read easily, the mask strap, the notch in some foil pads, etc. That put the fencer in the position of having to deal with or correct equipment that SHOULD'VE been made in accordance with the rules in the first place.

It shouldn't have to fall to newbies like me to correct the problems in gear from the big guys.

In defense of Leon Paul and logical reasoning, Barry's point about conductive surface area is a very very valid point. From a technical point of view, the rue states that:

"The jacket must have a conductive flap, 2 cm ¥ 3 cm in the middle of the back, just below the collar, to which the crocodile clip from the mask can be attached."

The point becomes a matter or interpretation. Barry's calculations for his tabs uses the logical reasoning of total conductive surface area of the tab being greater than or equal to 6 cm². The prevalent interpretation of the rule by the armorers in Southern California appears to be that the tab itself needs to be atleast 2 by 3 cm in size as a whole, not conductive surface area. That being said, I'm sure everybody will be happy if Leon Paul just makes the tabs bigger (armorers are covered and it doesn't really cost Leon Paul any to change the tab size).

I think this entire argument is simply a disagreement in how to read the rule.

[Purple Fencer]

I disagree....the rule states the physical dimensions of the tab....not the surface area.


Make the tab 2x3 and double side the lame material....simple. Or make it a pocket....also simple. it's not like there's retooling to do.

[Inquartata]

Yes. With regard to the rule on the height of the name lettering on a lame, does anyone think they can get away with less than what the rules specify, on the grounds that if they measure on the outside and then on the inside and add the two measurements they'll be in compliance?

[N00bArmorer]

The question should be about conductive surface. Technically you could have a tab that is 2 by 3 cm and connected to the collar by two threads. The purpose of the tab is electrical conduction. This rule was designed for only electrical conduction. There is a big difference between measurements for visual purposes (as lettering is) and measurments designed to guarantee electrical conductance. But I agree with the solution of just simply making the tabs bigger. I'm just saying that I can understand how the rule can be interpreted they way that Barry interprets it.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

And while I agree a larger tab would be easier to clip onto -- the ones on JL lame are enormous -- the rules DO state 2x3cm, and it gives the impression that the major manufacturers are flauinting the rules.

The JL do have very large tabs, BUT I have failed a lot of them. Many use the edge of the fabric and they have non-conductive material. Let us look at M.34 as that is the rule we have been discussing. The first paragraph would not allow a tab with only conductive material on one side, because it must cover entirely the target area. So using 600 square mm would not work. Both sides must be covered. The second paragraph covers the 2x3cm. The reason for the size is the size of the clip, minimum 1cm wide giving you 100% extra coverage.

[Barry Paul]

I have arranged delivery of ladders so Purple Fencer and Inquartata can get off their horses.

I was at the semi meeting at which the regulations for sabre were drawn up, as mainy of the rules the size of the tab was picked out from the blue. From memory they originall did not specify the clip to be used so sme of them were like the old body wire clip. I presume that as there is no tolerance any tab not exactly 20 by 30 will be rejected? So one that is 22 by 30 mm will be rejected?

It is not either stinginess, or laziness we have been making the tabs this size for ten years and have been passed at all A grade World Championships and Olympics for the last ten years.

As I said this is the first time the matter has been brought to our notice and we have already changed our cutting pattern

On another note I see remarks regarding pockets, this is not in the regulations. What are they? Are they legal. Barry Paul

[DHCJr]

One thing I didn't discuss was those tabs made into loops. The FIE seems to believe in overkill. Look at the required maximum resistance of all the equipment used.

To get a touch in Sabre,
2.5 - Floor cord
3 - Reel
1 - Body Cord
1 - Weapon
5 - Mask
1 - Mask Cord
5 - Lame'
1 - Body Cord
3 - Reel
2.5 Floor Cord
Total: 25 Ohms

The box is required to work even if there is 200 Ohms resistance in the outside line 700% overage.

Why didn't the FIE go with 600 sqare mm of conductive material. Here is what I think. Take a tab 3/4cm by 4cm conductive on both sides. First it would be tedious to check it was legal as you would have to measure and then multiply, but let us not go there. If a tab hangs straight down, you don't even have to see that the teeth are attached to the tab. If it falls off during the bout, any touches made by that fencer would be anulled (T.73).

Now make that same tab into a loop. I know a great way to adjust the probability of winning. Have the clip go around the loop. There is a minimum gap of 8mm. (M.29) It will not fall off and when tested at rest it will be touching the lame'. Now with movement it could sometimes not be in contact with the lame' nor the tab. To make a better chance of adjusting the posibility of winning, I would make a loop from material 1/2mm x 6mm covered on both sides. Most referees are not going to go over and make sure the teeth are firmly into the material making sure of a solid connection.

I hope this clears this up or at least gives some good discussion about the unclearness of FIE rules.

[DHCJr]

Barry, we must have been writing at the same time. I didn't notice you had written something until I was back in. I can imagine that they were picked out of the blue. Your comment about 22x30 is very good. It is a lot like the 15cm blade taping.

On what a pocket is. Dan suggested it as an option. This came about when a collegiate team came to the NCAA Westerns with what appeared to be all new sabre lame'. The problem was every tab connection to the lame' seemed to have been broken as if they had been bent back and forth breaking the threads. With the lame' on the table and just putting the lame' weight on the tab, it tested good. When the tab was lifted and the weight put on it there was no connection.

How a pocket is made is to tack down the bottom 2 corners. The tab no longer has as much movement, thus the connecting threads are not broken as readily.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

I have arranged delivery of ladders so Purple Fencer and Inquartata can get off their horses.

Meh, I use Uhlmann ladders, myself.

I was at the semi meeting at which the regulations for sabre were drawn up, as mainy of the rules the size of the tab was picked out from the blue.

And the means by which the rule was arrived at is relevant...how? It is now the rule, and there is no loophole on the basis of "Well, but the rule isn't logical". Otherwise I could still fleche in sabre.

It is not either stinginess, or laziness we have been making the tabs this size for ten years and have been passed at all A grade World Championships and Olympics for the last ten years.

"But officer, I've been speeding on this stretch of road for years! You CAN'T give me a ticket now!"

There are no loopholes in the rule, and there is no easement, either.

As I said this is the first time the matter has been brought to our notice and we have already changed our cutting pattern

Thank you.

[yeoldearmourer]

The funny thing is when come to the headcord there is no mention to what size the clip must be but must be a allingator clip but no size is given for it. I would fail a sabre lame for a pocket because the rules stated a TAB 2X3 cm nothing about a pocket

[MTD]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

The funny thing is when come to the headcord there is no mention to what size the clip must be but must be a allingator clip but no size is given for it.

"m.32 ... The electrical contact between the conductive jacket and the mask must be ensured by means of a wire and one or t