Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

felixduc · 03-08-2006, 09:48 PM

Hey guys,

Just recently stumbled across the site. Started fencing again after a 4 year hiatus (college)... I'm 22 years old now, began fencing when I was 12 or so.

I've always considered myself pretty decent; spent some time at the Fencer's Club in NYC, and my coach in high school was a well-known American fencing master.

I'm tall and pretty flexible, and so back then the flick was my game.

I've dusted off the gear, gotten back in shape, and started showing up at a local club. I'm a bit rusty, but haven't totally lost it.

Am I crazy, or is the flick game gone? I can't land ANYTHING. The machines won't pick it up. And, boys, I *know* I'm not hitting flat.

Can anyone tell me if the timing has been changed or something?

I was considering jumping into the USFA circuit and see if I can wrangle a rating, but if I can't flick it's going to take a lot more work...

Also, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. I tried searching, but couldn't turn anything up.

Thanks for your help!

keropie · 03-08-2006, 09:52 PM

Alas, you've missed the 'exciting' timing change. Two years ago (approximately) the FIE decided that the flick was a bad enough thing that they changed the depression timing from 1-5ms (for foil) to 14-16ms. So now a point must stand on it's head a lot longer to set a light off. Flicks are a relatively low percentage action unless the opponent helps you out (by leaning, turning, something). They still go off, and on occasion you'd swear that the flick that just went off can't go off on this timing.

As a riposte, it's an ok action. As an attack, it's pretty dead to the back. You can hit the flank of a same hander or the chest of an opposite hander ok. Note also that straight actions are effected somewhat, and that the restriction in blocking timing (which is now much shorter) allows remise actions and counterattacks to succeed much more than they have in the past. As a tall fencer, I'm sure you'll find a way to use this.

HTH

stealingophelia · 03-08-2006, 09:53 PM

Yup. Timing changes under Roch have changed foil a lot and sabre some. What club are you fencing at now?

felixduc · 03-08-2006, 09:59 PM

Thanks for the quick replies.

I'm not joking, Poulet. I had no idea.

That..... f*cking sucks.

stealingophelia · 03-08-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poulet

Thanks for quoting the entire post, which was already right there and then making a nearly entirely unintelligible post.

i'll delete it for the general public, but i wish there was a way to make it stay for you.

***Craig*** · 03-08-2006, 10:10 PM

Hey there felix,

You should check out this article by Allen Evans on how he changed his lessons to deal with the new and not so improved timings for foil:

http://home.earthlink.net/~allenevans59/NEWTIMINGS.HTML

The basics have been hit on already in this thread and if you do a seach on "new foil timings" or "new timings" you'll get quite a bit returned, some of which may actually be useful.

Craig

felixduc · 03-08-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Hey there felix,

You should check out this article by Allen Evans on how he changed his lessons to deal with the new and not so improved timings for foil:

http://home.earthlink.net/~allenevans59/NEWTIMINGS.HTML

The basics have been hit on already in this thread and if you do a seach on "new foil timings" or "new timings" you'll get quite a bit returned, some of which may actually be useful.

Craig

Thanks for the link and search suggestions, Craig

I just finished reading that article. Good info.

Also very disappointing to hear! When I was at my most competitive, between 1998-2002, I was basically groomed as a flicker by everyone I received lessons from... All the technique I learned was done so under the assumption that the marching flick attack would be my bread and butter.. I (along with most of my opponents) considered disengages and counters obsolete.

Guess I better start practicing coupes in my sleep...

Also, all the Yadda yadda yadda about invigorating the defensive game just rings "attack in prep" to me

OROD · 03-08-2006, 11:07 PM

Hey man, welcome back to the game. Yup, you missed the big timing changes and all the sound and fury the followed it. There was even a protest by the top fencers at one of the world cups where they fenced to 1 touch and that was it. But all of it in the end ignored by Roch on his crusade to erradicate the flick.

Oh, and BTW, now you can also enjoy straight attacks that dont set the machine off, people *****ing about it, people wearing chest plates which make it difficult to score on them, people *****ing about the chest plates, squirmers, people *****ing about the squirmers, counter-attackers, people *****ing... well, you get the idea. And did I mention the new lock-out times that make some previously valid repostes not go off?

Welcome back dude!

.

mrbiggs · 03-08-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixduc

Thanks for the quick replies.

I'm not joking, Poulet. I had no idea.

That..... f*cking sucks.

For the record, you can still land well-placed flicks. They're simply not advantageous any more because they miss too often.

The game has changed pretty dramatically, at all levels.

OROD · 03-08-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixduc

All the technique I learned was done so under the assumption that the marching flick attack would be my bread and butter.. I (along with most of my opponents) considered disengages and counters obsolete.

You can still do your marching attack, just have to finish with an extension rather than a flick. And attack-in-prep is generally being called tighter than before, but it's cool as long as you dont hesitate before finishing your attack.

But flicks still work fairly well on those people that insist on remising while exposing their backs...

.

felixduc · 03-08-2006, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OROD

Hey man, welcome back to the game. Yup, you missed the big timing changes and all the sound and fury the followed it. There was even a protest by the top fencers at one of the world cups where they fenced to 1 touch and that was it. But all of it in the end ignored by Roch on his crusade to erradicate the flick.

Oh, and BTW, now you can also enjoy straight attacks that dont set the machine off, people *****ing about it, people wearing chest plates which make it difficult to score on them, people *****ing about the chest plates, squirmers, people *****ing about the squirmers, counter-attackers, people *****ing... well, you get the idea. And did I mention the new lock-out times that make some previously valid repostes not go off?

Welcome back dude!

.

Word... I've been searching around on here, tons of good threads on the new timings (sorry for beating a dead horse!)

I've never been a whiner, but I can understand the outrage. What drew me to foil initially was the dynamic athleticism that wasn't represented in the other weapons. Even saber is linear... Foil was truly three-dimensional (to use a poor analogy) and there was nothing more satisfying than landing a beautiful spine-flick into prep as you spun past the poor bastard. I'll miss those for sure.

I've been fencing for the past 3 weeks or so, oblivious to the new timings and assuming my inability to land a flick was just the rust working itself out (and the stiff-ass club weapons... gonna put in an order with Uhlmann ASAP and get some butter blades!)

I haven't yet encountered problems with straight attacks or ripostes failing, but I'm going to be much more vigilant and skeptical of my fencing now. I was able to land flank flicks, but I never really considered them "true" flicks, you know?

It's interesting, anyway. I sort of wish the competition at my current club was better so I could see how good foil is fenced now (and get an idea of where I stand these days...)

This chest protector stuff is pretty lame. I've never heard of men wearing chest protectors. And to use equipment to a tactical advantage is a pretty huge faux-pas as far as I'm concerned. Whoops, sorry about that, chuckles. For some reason I keep landing flat on your shins!

noodle · 03-09-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixduc

This chest protector stuff is pretty lame. I've never heard of men wearing chest protectors. And to use equipment to a tactical advantage is a pretty huge faux-pas as far as I'm concerned. Whoops, sorry about that, chuckles. For some reason I keep landing flat on your shins!

its not a problem much anymore. people who have them generally don't use them unless someone they're fencing is using it and its really not a big issue anymore.

***Craig*** · 03-09-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixduc

I've been fencing for the past 3 weeks or so, oblivious to the new timings and assuming my inability to land a flick was just the rust working itself out (and the stiff-ass club weapons... gonna put in an order with Uhlmann ASAP and get some butter blades!)

These days you'll want a slightly stiffer blade so that you don't have so much point-wobble. That's been seen by some as a factor in why some straight touches don't register. Though, if you're going for the Uhlmann or FWF blades you'll do okay. (BTW, Uhlmann is now sourcing a lot of their parts from Asia now and the German company that manufactured their point parts is now selling them under the "FWF" or FenceWithFun brand name.)

Craig

http://shop.fencing.net/

felixduc · 03-09-2006, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

These days you'll want a slightly stiffer blade so that you don't have so much point-wobble. That's been seen by some as a factor in why some straight touches don't register. Though, if you're going for the Uhlmann or FWF blades you'll do okay. (BTW, Uhlmann is now sourcing a lot of their parts from Asia now and the German company that manufactured their point parts is now selling them under the "FWF" or FenceWithFun brand name.)

Craig

http://shop.fencing.net/

Makes sense... But while I am willing to (reluctantly) give up the flick--or the flick as my primary offense--I don't think I'm ready to give up my hoola-hoop blades just yet.

fatfencer · 03-09-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poulet

It is dramatically harder to hit a straight attack with a floppy blade these days. Soon enough, you'll see the blade-bent-on-your-opponent's-chest phenomenon more times than you ever wanted...

Maybe I've found a use for my stiffer vniti's. SOme BF's turn into spaghetti after a short while.

Stiff but light is good.

FF

garyhayenga · 03-09-2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poulet

It is dramatically harder to hit a straight attack with a floppy blade these days. Soon enough, you'll see the blade-bent-on-your-opponent's-chest phenomenon more times than you ever wanted...

I don't actually notice a difference in that between my floppy blades and my stiff blades. Most of what I have are fairly stiff blades and the blade bent on my opponents chest with no light happens to me quite frequently.

Do most people notice it happening more frequently with more flexible blades? Hmm, maybe I should start a Poll ;-)

gary hayenga

jeff · 03-09-2006, 02:08 PM

Somebody on the board predicted that, just as the traditionalists complained about the flick and were told to 'get over it - the game has changed', after the timing change the flickers would be put in the exact same situation.

felixduc · 03-09-2006, 02:16 PM

I don't like noodle blades only because of the flick... They're just what I was trained on, for the most part, and what I always used in competition. So there's a comfort component, too -- the way the blade reacts to my, and my opponent's, manipulation, the way it responds when I land a touch, etc.

I've never liked stiff blades because I've never felt like I was driving my attacks into my opponent. Instead, the stiff blade was resisting my input...Like chopping wood with an axe and missing the log, if you can picture that. It throws me off.

I also hate it when they bend all wrong and inverted...my soft blades arc perfectly everytime, no matter how off-kilter or poor my lunge is that day.

But again, if the new foil game has moved towards stiff blades again, well, then I'll have no choice but to follow suit I guess.

larkmaj · 03-09-2006, 02:33 PM

Hasn't the max bend for foil been changed from 4cm to 1cm? That's something you need to be mindful of with those extra flexible blades.

felixduc · 03-09-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larkmaj

Hasn't the max bend for foil been changed from 4cm to 1cm? That's something you need to be mindful of with those extra flexible blades.

Christ on a f'ing bike. So basically the FIE got together and decided that they were pissed I quit, and were going to make it so that I'd never want to return to the sport?