Fencing the Opposite Sex

[TrainingDummy]

I almost put this in the Water Cooler until I realized the real ramifications my experience (and doubtless similar experiences of others) has for competitive fencing. This is gonna require alot of typing from me and some patience from the reader, but I would really appreciate any feedback. Unless it's trolling. As this is heavily psychologically/sociologically centered (I'm in college, guess my major/minor!), I'm going to have to start with a bit about myself. So...

I am 20 years old, 21 in 2 weeks. I live in Texas but am not a "good old boy," my parents are Roman Catholic Democrats (well, they vote Dem or Independent almost always) and raised me as such, plus I moved here from suburban Ohio when I was almost 13. Being raised the way I was, I turned out as a Libertarian-Socialist atheist (naturally). While I am not a "feminist" in many senses I believe to treat women as anything other than equal is wrong and irrational.

So, fencing: I was doing epee drills with a female student in my class @ school and I poked her on the hip with, I believe, an extension and strong advance. This elicited an "Ow, @#&%!" I apologized and said I didn't think it was very hard to which she replied, verbatim, "I'm a girl!" Wow. I kind of stammered for a minute then shut up. Bear in mind, she is my age and a very independent woman, probably more independent than your typical US college girl and not the prissy type. Hell, she enjoys fighting with swords, need I say more?! Anyway, she wasn't joking.

Later, I began thinking about how I fence when I fence women. This is the not the first time I had hurt someone in fencing, at least within the normal confines of usual fencing injuries (oh, I didn't know you were gonna lunge too, that sort of thing) although I have never delivered a "bout-stopper" and don't fence in a way that I would. If this had been a male fencer, I just would have said "sorry" and kept fencing. Now I find myself with a dilemna: I don't want to hurt anyone even slightly and my upbringing (typical American boy) makes me especially averse to hurting a woman (even, ironically, if we are both holding weapons), but what good is it to her (or anyone?) if I fence all nervous and restrained? If she faces another (female) fencer in a DE, is that fencer going to think "okay, be careful, she's a girl"? Of course not! Coach Paul, and I'm sure others, makes us try to land the touch in every drill, even if we know it will be parried, because it is detrimental for one to face a sparring/drill partner who is not trying to score touches. That's not fencing.

So, input? Similar experiences? I keep telling myself to shrug it off as an isolated incident. I have had one other fencer, a female, express pain when fencing me (epee, I lunge and hit her knee when an advance would have sufficed), but she smiled, laughed, rubber her leg, and we kept fencing. Probably I have left a bruise or two on some guys in the club but I wouldn't know because men aren't supposed to bring that up.

How do you deal (ladies, men, coaches, fencers)?

[EDIT]: I forgot to mention that I have been fencing since September, epee since early February.

[Patterson]

In my brief fencing career, i have noticed that both guys and girls benifit from fencing the opposite sex. Guys tend to be mre physically strong and be bigger, meaning strong parries, long lunges, etc. Girls tend to be more dexterious and graceful, meaning faster footwork, better balance, etc. Chances are, the girl you fenced didn't think a whole lot about that comment and you are making it a bigger deal than it is.

[edit] *grumble* f***ing grammer *grumble* [/edit]

[Patterson]

stop snitchin' indeed.

[shango]

I always find it frustrating, as my tip seems to slide of those breast protectors everytime.

Also, Poulet, do you really have the need to correct every single damn grammatical mistake in everyone's post?


You can't correct me, cause I type GOOD.

[keropie]

If she's in a fencing class of some sort, I wouldn't worry about it unless your coach/a more experienced fencer/the voice of God tells you that you're overdoing things in your fencing actions. I fence women moderately often, and occasionally younger people (12-16), and if we're keeping score, then I fence to win. I don't want to hurt someone and won't try to, but if my action happens to land squarely on their collarbone and hurt, I'll say 'sorry' and keep fencing the same way. If it hurts too much, they can stop, but in any 'competitive' situation, it cheapens the experience for us both if I'm fencing less than competitively.

Now, when I'm just playing around, or in a lesson or some such, I'll certainly fence differently. If I'm working with our kids group (beginners to very barely intermediate) and we're just 'free fencing,' then yeah, I'm not going at it competitively. But if I'm drilling with an equal student or even a competitive student, then yes, I'll make the action correctly, which may mean that if they don't do their job, it hurts. Part of the sport. Oh well.

The only thing I might do is talk to your coach/instructor and see if you make actions that are out of control or more likely to lead to pain/injury beyond the acceptable threshold. If that's the case, clean that up. If not, she'll get over it, or find a different sport.

Eh, a bit callous, be such is life some days I guess...

[Patterson]

Originally Posted by Poulet

What am I stealing or upon what am I turning informer?

*shrug* I was kinda grasping at straws.

You should know that I took the time to look over this post grammatically. I guess I'll have to do that from now on.

Wait, what was wrong with the edit?

[shango]

Apparently the sarcasm was missed here. I emphasized GOOD for a reason.

[Patterson]

Yep, I didn't get the sarcasm from chicken.

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

I would really appreciate any feedback. Unless it's trolling.

The genuine responses to my post are appreciated. The ones about grammar aren't so much.

[Patterson]

Sorry about that.

[Phrogger]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

So, fencing: I was doing epee drills with a female student in my class @ school and I poked her on the hip with, I believe, an extension and strong advance. This elicited an "Ow, @#&%!" I apologized and said I didn't think it was very hard to which she replied, verbatim, "I'm a girl!"

This kind of stuff makes all us women look bad. Ladies, if you can't take it, you shouldn't be fencing at all. Epee HURTS, period. Now, if you were fencing like a jerk (there are a lot of epeeists like this out there), I could understand the expletive, but to invoke one's gender like that at the end is just wrong. If nothing else, this will tell you the difference between REAL fencers and posers.

[Fencergrl]

I fence epee and usually train with men. I am very strong, so beats and such don't bother me. I've had some pretty serious bruises and have given some as well.

Sometimes I take breaks from fencing certain people because our styles are clashing and someone ends up getting hurt... timing can be a funny thing and when you fence someone you know well you tend to anticipate what they’re going to do next.

Yes injuries happen, but they should be avoided. This is a game of finesse, not strength and power per se. It doesn’t take much pressure to get a touch. I hardly feel the touches from the very best fencers, while beginners will often leave the worst bruises.

Perhaps you hit her funny and it really did hurt. Perhaps she was being wimpy. Perhaps you need to have a softer touch (guys are often heavy handed).

[Grasshopper]

[EDIT]: I forgot to mention that I have been fencing since September, epee since early February.

I think herein lies the problem. You are a nooby. And noobies don't understand that a good hit is not a strong hit. They just try to turn the lights on. As you get better, you will naturally stop hurting the girls. In fact, you will probably be back here posting a thread on why women fencers hit you so hard when they don't need to.

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by Poulet

^2

stupid char req

Yeah, got no idea what that means. Squared? You agree with him to the power of 2? Anyway, I was having a problem with "jabbing" and a stiff arm, but I have gotten much better and am conscious of it on the occasions when it does happen accidentally. In that instance I was not guilty... this was an advance with extension without excessive force done at proper distance. This was a drill, too. I don't screw up and "jab" or "punch" the point unless I am really nervous. It is part technique, part nerves.

[smurfette]

Men and women training together: can be good, can be bad (just like any training partners) -- more often than not, it can't be avoided (though I would much prefer to have a club full of top women to train with).

For me, a strong and experienced woman, I tend to take into account a number of things when I decide if I want to fence a man in training. First, is he new to fencing? Translate: is he awkward, does he hit flat all the time, and is he out of control (like a lot of beginners out there). If so, I may think twice, simply because it may not be worth it. But this would also go for a woman beginner. Second, is he enormous or 7 feet tall (and even worse if he is a beginner!)? This vastly increases the chances of getting hurt in a way that is completely unnecessary. If he is enormous and out of control, forget it entirely. Finally, his style: a number of men at my club are very good fencers, and while they are much bigger taller and stronger than I am, do a very good job at working on stuff that also benefits me. Such as hand touches and coupes. Not just overpowering me with a fleche -- sure they will probably hit, because they are 6 foot 4.

Training dummy: these are things to think about when fencing a woman, or anybody for that matter. How to maximize the bout for you both?

One thing to keep in mind. A number of men (usually beginners or intermediates) get all worked up when fencing women because of the fear of "losing to a girl." More often than not, this does not help their fencing, making them more out of control, wild, and more likely to hit unnecessarily hard. I will leave it up to you to ask yourself if this ever happens.

Be aware of differences in size and strength, which may be more frequent across genders; also be aware of the dangers "punching" or hitting flat in epee, and adjust your fencing to maximize the benefits of training for both partners. This goes for all training bouts, not just gender differentials. Perhaps ask your training partner how the bout can be beneficial for her, as well, and have a candid conversation about it. I have had to "discipline" some men into fencing in a way that I too can benefit, and this has been successful. I imagine she may be receptive to such a conversation.

[mlr2fence]

Might be reading wayyy too much into this, but with her comment of 'I'm a girl!' could she have been flirting....just a tad? (by pointing out the obvious?...)

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

Might be reading wayyy too much into this, but with her comment of 'I'm a girl!' could she have been flirting....just a tad? (by pointing out the obvious?...)

Actually... the possibility had crossed my mind. Then it stayed there for a bit. I really do think I may have caused her some pain though, so I guess that's what really matters. It's funny when you think about it; poking is a prevalent way for two people to flirt with each other. You can poke someone of the opposite sex 15 times without reaction, but once the bout is over, every poke is a come-on. Strange.

[Kenji]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

Yeah, got no idea what that means. Squared? You agree with him to the power of 2?

Perhaps he just means he seconds that?

[Ordway]

As a fencer, I dislike being hit excessively hard. It's bad fencing and bad manners.

As a woman, I fence men and women equally, and I'm not the least bit afraid of fencing any man. I'd have been hard pressed to fence sabre for 14 years without being able to fence men with aplomb... I expect my opponent to fence me to the best of his/her ability and not cut me any "breaks." If I felt that my opponent was holding back because I was "a girl," I would ruthlessly exploit that weakness and serve him his head on a platter.

If someone is hitting too hard, I'll call him/her on it - that's something that club peer pressure needs to attend to. I'd certainly never make a comment like "hey, I'm a girl" in response to getting hit too hard, though! I suspect potential harmless flirtiness, especially since the "epee chicks" that I've known have all been really gutsy (and prone to showing off their bruises like badges of honor!)

[cs3dswb]

I've been fencing sabre for almost a decade now. For the first 7-8 of those i was fencing blokes mostly older than myself and i came out of it with plenty of bruises. I dont tone my fencing down when i am fencing a girl, i will be more apologetic than if my opponent were a bloke. Sabre is a vicious sport and i've been beaten on by some of the biggest, including a Russian who must have towered above me by at lesat 2 foot, i still won even if it was with a sabre brusie on my right shoulder that went down to the small of my back

Anyway the majority of girls who pick up a sword can look after themselves and if they can't they should drop the sword rapidly. Like everyone else i am only going to say that you should probably check to see if you are fencing dangerously. Other than that just say sorry and keep going, if they want to stop then they can stop.