80% Promotion from Pools

[Phaeton]

I recently attended "The Linkmeyer Open" and much to my dismay on arrival found out it was 80% promotion from pools. I fully understand limited promotion at larger events, but after self directing, finding that my companions weren't going up while half the people had byes was a little bit agravating.

When should limited promotion take place? And would you rather wait another hour or so and have full promotion at a smaller event?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Were the rules and event format posted beforehand?

[Poulet]

If your teammates couldn't get into the top 80% of that crowd, what were they doing driving so far (you don't say where you're from, I'll assume somewhere exotic) to get beaten up? Is losing a 15-3 bout really worth all that much extra?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Sorry; I'd like to sympathize, but pragmatism wins out ...

1. if the tourney info was publicly posted beforehand, no one has a legitimate reason to gripe. you read the rules, you play the game, you take your chances.

2. failing to make an 80 percent cut-off doesn't put anyone in a very strong position to complain about that extra DE bout they missed. be honest: the DE tableau is structured in such a way that the bottom 20 percent almost immediately face off against the strongest 20 percent. not much of a chance for promotion, if their pool bout indicators are any indication (and they are).

3. most of us have, at some time (earlier than later), been bumped from the bottom at similar events. it's part of the learning curve and culling process you have to deal with.

4. if you want to experience more fencing fun before you go home, try to pick up a game with others who are no longer competing.

[bbower]

Originally Posted by Poulet

If your teammates couldn't get into the top 80% of that crowd, what were they doing driving so far (you don't say where you're from, I'll assume somewhere exotic) to get beaten up? Is losing a 15-3 bout really worth all that much extra?

Except in men's epee, where the pool bouts are just a formality.

[AndrewH]

You know I never understood that 80% promotion thing. I've seen so many cases where like 30 fencers will show up, then the bottom 20% are cut, leaving 24. Then they fence a table of 32, giving the top 8 byes. Why not just keep everyone and fence the table of 32?

I think if you're going to cut after pools, it needs to be either
a) cut to a power of 2, i.e. cut from 26 down to 16 to run a full table or
b) a significant cut, i.e. only the top 50% move on

[Kalishnikov]

How many people showed up?

[KD5MDK]

If you're going to complain about 80% cuts, I'd complain when it's applied to 5 person events, first.

[Ordway]

I was at the Linkmeyer, too. I was surprised to see the 80% up signs when I got there; it's possible that the flyer or website said it beforehand somewhere, but certainly nowhere particularly noticeable, since it was news to me.

I wasn't worried about not making the cut, but I think in general it's a bad idea. Those extra DE bouts aren't really going to make that much of a difference in terms of running time, and they're a good learning experience for the bottom 20%.

I also think that if they're going to make a cut, then they should make larger pools (6 and 7) so that there's more of a basis to make the cut. I believe there were a lot of pools of 5 (mine, for instance).

Making a cut with some pools being self-directed is also more likely to cause griping than if there are referees for every pool. (Though people will complain in any case. I had excellent referees for my pool and DEs, on my part.)

In any case, it should have been made clearer on the promotional materials. Other than that, I felt it was a well-run tournament, though.

[Purple Fencer]

With limited space (even in THAT gym) 80% makes logistical sense....I didn't get out until around 8pm (because I didn't start packing until the round of 4 in sabre).

The extra 20% people would make a HUGE differance in terms of completing the event before the sun comes up.

The Linkmeyer is a big event....80% up is perfectly acceptable.

Does anyoner remember Duel in the Desert the first year it was in the Tropicana?? Thery took 100% up in all events...and there were over 100 people in epee alone....it took FOREVER to finish the damn thing!

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

With limited space (even in THAT gym) 80% makes logistical sense....I didn't get out until around 8pm (because I didn't start packing until the round of 4 in sabre)

Yikes!

I got knocked out in the round of 16, at about 5 PM. How could it take 3 more hours to do 2 more rounds of sabre?!? That's an issue that has nothing to do with 80% up!

Actually, I can think of several things at Linkmeyer that made it run a lot slower than it could have, and that had nothing to do with a cut/no cut. First, they apparently started ALL the events about an hour late, and in sabre there was about a half-hour delay because one of the pool sheets wasn't turned in.

Duel in the Desert this year had a lot of entrants but had 100% up, and went (to use Boston parlance) wicked fast. I don't think a cut is going to help that much with speeding up a tournament that has other issues, and I don't think that 100% up is going to appreciably slow down a tournament that's well handled across the board.

[notalent]

Greetings Ordway,
We had 57 in mixed epee, and mixed foil, 47 in mixed sabre, 25 in womens epee. With a couple of folks doing 2 events. We had 18 strips up and running most of the day. In epee we did pools of 6-7 in Sabre the numbers were mostly 6 with 2 pools of 5. The 80% cut is normal for most socal tournaments. If we take everyone up we are there for another hour or so, and we only had the gym till 8. We were hurt in the ref dept by the various NCAA regionals. I'm glad you liked the reffing that you got, we all put in a long day
Terry Dix.

Originally Posted by Ordway

I was at the Linkmeyer, too. I was surprised to see the 80% up signs when I got there; it's possible that the flyer or website said it beforehand somewhere, but certainly nowhere particularly noticeable, since it was news to me.

I wasn't worried about not making the cut, but I think in general it's a bad idea. Those extra DE bouts aren't really going to make that much of a difference in terms of running time, and they're a good learning experience for the bottom 20%.

I also think that if they're going to make a cut, then they should make larger pools (6 and 7) so that there's more of a basis to make the cut. I believe there were a lot of pools of 5 (mine, for instance).

Making a cut with some pools being self-directed is also more likely to cause griping than if there are referees for every pool. (Though people will complain in any case. I had excellent referees for my pool and DEs, on my part.)

In any case, it should have been made clearer on the promotional materials. Other than that, I felt it was a well-run tournament, though.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Ordway

I got knocked out in the round of 16, at about 5 PM. How could it take 3 more hours to do 2 more rounds of sabre?!? That's an issue that has nothing to do with 80% up!

If you read carefully, the 3 additional hours includes not only the couple of rounds of sabre, but also whatever time Sam spent finishing packing and leaving after all of the fencing was completed. The fencing COULD have finished at 5:30 and still no conflict with Sam's statement.

Originally Posted by Ordway

(to use Boston parlance) wicked fast.

At least spell it correctly. "WIKKID fast"* :)

-B
* "wikkid" being the phonetic spelling for how Bostonians pronounce the word "very", as most commonly heard in the expression "wikkid pissa" ("very cool").

[KD5MDK]

Being partially Maine-ish, I associated it with "wicked good" more than anything else.

In any event, I think the format should have been on the flyer.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

If you read carefully, the 3 additional hours includes not only the couple of rounds of sabre, but also whatever time Sam spent finishing packing and leaving after all of the fencing was completed. The fencing COULD have finished at 5:30 and still no conflict with Sam's statement.

I could also be misremembering the time I started packing....which is likely...but as Terry said, the event had limited time in the gym. 100% up probably would've made the event go over time, and the USC club woul dhave to pay for that time

[notalent]

Greetings Ordway,
It was foil that finished late and that was done at 7 Sam just takes awhile to close up shop We had some folks jumping between weapons. We got the epee started late because of a club seeding issue. Folks need to know the name of their club if its not the name of their school . At Duel we were double stripping from the word go, and we only did 3 events a day on 24 grounded strips. Linda Dunn did a good job with the BC, as would be expected from a national BC person. We needed more refs to speed the process along. I can only ref one strip at a time, I'm just not up to Maulers standards

Terry

Originally Posted by Ordway

Yikes!

I got knocked out in the round of 16, at about 5 PM. How could it take 3 more hours to do 2 more rounds of sabre?!? That's an issue that has nothing to do with 80% up!

Actually, I can think of several things at Linkmeyer that made it run a lot slower than it could have, and that had nothing to do with a cut/no cut. First, they apparently started ALL the events about an hour late, and in sabre there was about a half-hour delay because one of the pool sheets wasn't turned in.

Duel in the Desert this year had a lot of entrants but had 100% up, and went (to use Boston parlance) wicked fast. I don't think a cut is going to help that much with speeding up a tournament that has other issues, and I don't think that 100% up is going to appreciably slow down a tournament that's well handled across the board.

[academe]

I'm still looking for results, are they going to be posted soon?

[sleepyweasle]

80% promotion is going to start looking pretty good to you when you start going to Div 1 events. Last Dec. in Pittsburgh, the WS event (which is normally comparitively small) coincided with a major snowstorm so only 53 fencers competed. Because of the way these events are run - only 19 made it to DE's.

Such is life...

[lindajdunn]

I'm curious. What's BC?

I saw a reference to Linda Dunn and BC. I knew there was an established fencer in the USFA with the same name but I have not yet met her nor do I know anything about her.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

I'm curious. What's BC?

BC == Bout Committee in this context.

-B