Frustruated Fencer

[erik_blank]

I had an unexpected thing happen last night in practice. One of my newer students was facing me in a bout and was loosing 3-0, so, in an effort to geet her to try using some of the techniques we had been going over that practice, I decided to go with simple straight attacks hoping that she woudl succeed in a parry repost. Unfortunately, while she did attempt the repost a few times, she was unable to get her point on target. At hat point she became so frusturated with her poor performance that she started to cry.

This was embarrassing for her and pretty disconcerting for me. I stopped the bout and let her compose herself for a bit, then started again, hoping that she would be able to compose herself. Unfortunately she was too annoyed with herself to be able to do more than a half hearted response for the next two touches.

I really do not want to lose this person, and I think that she can become a good fencer, if she can get pst this issue of retreating within herself when she gets frusturated, but I am at a loss of how to go about getting her to redirect her attitude.

Any Ideas?

As a followup; I shuold mention that this is a college student, and that she is a part of a mid sized group that I work with once a week.

She has been fencing for over four months now.

[Morion]

How old is this person? With a child (say under 12) you can try to reassure them that they will get better. With an older student you might try to point out that there is a reason for drills and practice and that they must stick with the program to get better. Ultimatly it is up to the student to find it within themselves to continue. If they don't want to you can't make them. Good luck!

BTW IUP grad class of '76 here!

[Ordway]

As a teacher as well as a coach, I'd suggest the following:

1. Praise the behavior that works. If she makes a successful parry and happens to not land with the riposte, stop the action and tell her that she did a successful parry - good job! This is important because her frustration may lead her to think that EVERYTHING she's doing is wrong. You want her to know what's working so she can put "what doesn't work" into context and know that she's making progress. Praise is extremely important for beginning fencers because they don't yet know how to identify what's correct and what's not, especially in a high-tension situation like a bout.

2. Tell her, explicitly, that fencing involves learning lots of different actions and putting them together in sequence... and that nobody learns everything at once. So it is not a big deal at all if she has trouble with certain things or can't do them... YET.

3. Make it clear that you'll help her learn how to succeed at what she's having trouble with. After a situation like that, I'd have told her, "You're doing a nice job with the parries. Looks like we need to work on landing the point, so that's what we'll do in our next lesson. Remind me of that when it's time for your lesson, OK? In the meantime, for the rest of this evening, just concentrate on getting ROW and don't worry about whether you land or not - that'll come later."

4. The next time you set up a situation like that in a bout, tell her ahead of time what you're going to do, so she can be ready to do it.

5. Whenever possible, end a session with the student having done something successfully/correctly, even if it means doing an extra touch after the bout is finished.

Hope that gives you some ideas!

[Valerio Versace]

Sure, teach her how to do a parry - riposte properly: if failure affects her so much, success will affect her with the same magnitude, just in the opposite direction. It's a matter of gratification. Age might be an important factor here too: how old is she?
Why isn't her point on target?

[Sword Hobbit]

Is she an only student? If so, she may feel that it's hopeless to ever be good at fencing, seeing as she never sees other beginners to compare herself to.

[Mr Epee]

Here ya go.

1. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you have a crush on this girl. You should be honest with yourself, and realize that fencing may not be the only factor involved.

2. Why are you, the instructor, bouting against new students?

3. Fencing is not for everyone.

[Valerio Versace]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Here ya go.

1. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you have a crush on this girl. You should be honest with yourself, and realize that fencing may not be the only factor involved.

2. Why are you, the instructor, bouting against new students?

3. Fencing is not for everyone.

It MIGHT be just an impression of mine but... could it be that your judgement is slightly altered by the fact that we are talking about a FEMALE human?

[jBirch]

Let her cry it out. When she's ready, answer her questions. If she quits, then she never had any potential to start with.

James.

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Let her cry it out. When she's ready, answer her questions. If she quits, then she never had any potential to start with.

That's harsh. Sometimes a kind word of encouragement to a frustrated student can make all the world of difference in motivating him/her to continue. It has nothing to do with potential. I'd even say that the fact that she was getting upset means that she has the desire to do well, and was frustrated by the desire to do the action well outstripping her ability to implement it. I'd say that there's a lot more potential there than in someone who doesn't ever get frustrated because he/she doesn't care one way or another.

"Potential" is overrated, anyway. The will to succeed is far more important. Nobody who saw me as a novice fencer would have expected me, a clumsy couch potato, to stick with it, let alone become halfway decent. But my college coaches were very encouraging and supportive. Who knows how many fencers like that are out there?

The other day, I had a student burst into tears in my English class (fortunately, after class had let out) because she'd gotten an unexpectedly low mark on a homework that she'd worked hard on. Should I have just let her get over it, and figure that if she drops the class, she wasn't ready for it anyway? Absolutely not. I explained why I'd given her that mark, and we talked a bit about her work in general. Turns out she's under a lot of stress outside of class, and felt like she was having a hard time keeping up. I noticed that her class binder was quite disorganized, which was adding to her stress level, and gave some specific suggestions for organizing it so she could keep track of her work better. Just that simple thing - not directly related to what she was actually upset about - helped her get focused. Next time she handed in a homework, it was excellent, and she was definitely more focused and less distracted, so it was very worthwhile to spend the time with some simple reassurances and advice.

You can still have very high standards for your students - I certainly do! - but it's important to realize that it does NOT diminish those standards to help students meet them, or to recognize that students are human beings too.

[Fencergrl]

I agree with you Orway.

I think Orway's two posts were the most helpful. Girls/ women cry more easily than men. It doesn’t mean we aren’t cut out for a sport or are not mentally “tough” enough. It’s simply the way some of us express frustration and disappointment.

Bah... I think some of you guys are just having "your time of the month" or something.... because some of you usually offer better advice than what you're giving in this thread.

[jBirch]

Ordway,

I understand what you're saying.

In general at my club, when a student is crying (especially a female student) it is not always because that student needs comforting for some perceived pain. Most often (in fact, almost always) it is due to a simple physical reaction to the intense emotions that competition engenders. Amongst the young ones (and some older ones), it's an attention getting device.

When a student becomes (as the original poster stated) irrationally frustrated, confronting them with any additional information (even encouragement) is completely counter-productive. By saying anything at this point, all you are doing is confirming that they suck, are worthless and incompetent if they even hear you.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do at this juncture is to just move on with your lesson and be there when they want you to be. When they want you there, that's when you turn down the difficulty a bit and let them have some success. Couple that success with explanation and build on it.

If it is a private lesson setting that this happens in, push them and don't let up until they ARE successful. Then, praise the living crap out of that. There is nothing more exhilerating about teaching then when you and a student together burst through that dam of ignorance. Understand though, that you created the frustrating situation for the student in the first place and you may need to rethink the difficulty level of the material you are presenting for the next time.

If at the end of the day, the student still decides to quit then they really were not in a teachable mindset from the start. They were, in effect, looking for an excuse to quit. Investing more time and energy in a student that doesn't want to be there is a waste of your time and energy.

To be harsh, what about the other students in your class? Don't they deserve your training too? How much time do you spend coddling this one at the expense of the others?

James.

[Valerio Versace]

Originally Posted by Ordway

[...]

I agree, absolutely.
Being emotionally weak has nothing to do with fencing potential. It could be a problem in training or stress situations like competitions just as much as it can generate motivation.
Besides, all of that stuff about potential really pisses me off.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Valerio Versace

It MIGHT be just an impression of mine but... could it be that your judgement is slightly altered by the fact that we are talking about a FEMALE human?

Yes, do you realize how awkward this would be if it were a male student crying?

I left one out earlier.

4. During certain periods girls cry more easily than others. This has nothing to do with fencing.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Valerio Versace

Being emotionally weak has nothing to do with fencing potential.

This must be a joke.

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Let her cry it out. When she's ready, answer her questions. If she quits, then she never had any potential to start with.

James.

James,

Just cut to the chase .... she can still contribute to the club: have her stand still and let the other students use her as target practice.

Regards,
Feltan

[Gav]

Whenever I come across a new fencer who is getting a serious kicking off me in a club environment I halt the bout. I am normally not getting anything out of it, they certainly aren't, there is no point in continuing. Instead I might calmly suggest a few things and give them a couple of minutes of 'coaching'. I don't press the bout. The trick is not to be patronising and to make them feel that they are achieving something.

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by jBirch

When a student becomes (as the original poster stated) irrationally frustrated, confronting them with any additional information (even encouragement) is completely counter-productive. By saying anything at this point, all you are doing is confirming that they suck, are worthless and incompetent if they even hear you.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do at this juncture is to just move on with your lesson and be there when they want you to be. When they want you there, that's when you turn down the difficulty a bit and let them have some success. Couple that success with explanation and build on it.

If it is a private lesson setting that this happens in, push them and don't let up until they ARE successful. Then, praise the living crap out of that. There is nothing more exhilerating about teaching then when you and a student together burst through that dam of ignorance. Understand though, that you created the frustrating situation for the student in the first place and you may need to rethink the difficulty level of the material you are presenting for the next time.

In fuller context, that makes a lot more sense, and I agree with you. The more condensed version just sounded too much like a certain "tough it out or get out" attitude that I see in some teachers that's really IMO unproductive.

I'd just stress the importance of sensing that a moment of frustration is building, so that (ideally) the teachable moment is *before* the outburst. Doesn't always work, though!

To be harsh, what about the other students in your class? Don't they deserve your training too? How much time do you spend coddling this one at the expense of the others?

Well, as I mentioned, this particular incident was after class, so it wasn't taking any time away from my other students. During class, I try to pay individual attention to as many students as possible. Some do get more attention than others, simply because some *need* it more than others, to be honest. It's not coddling, it's realism. I definitely will put more effort into helping a student who shows a desire to benefit from my help (staying after class, coming to office hours, asking questions, etc.) and this particular student is one who has shown a lot of motivation to begin with. So I certainly don't mind spending some extra time now; it'll pay off later on down the line. It's also worthwhile to note that some students are just shy, reserved, or terrified, and may seem withdrawn, but a few friendly questions and a bit of encouragement can make them comfortable enough to be more actively engaged. There are always a few students (in any group) who right away are eager to take up ALL your time if you let them; those are the ones who are tricky to balance!

[jBirch]

A couple of other thoughts here:

1) Someone asked why the coach was fencing the newb. If they are unable to get any touches on you, then they certainly should not be fencing you at the club. As a coach, you certainly shouldn't be encouraging that.

2) If you are going to fence, why are you letting up and going easy on them? It degrades every single actual touch that they achieve against you.

I've also been thinking more deeply about what Ordway is saying and I still disagree with the basic premise (if I understand it correctly). The premise that I read is that the student should achieve the goals the coach sets out according to the coach's curriculum. Sounds reasonable.

Here's a different coaching philosophy: the student sets their own goals and the coach is used as a resource by the student to achieve those goals.

The difference between these two philosophies is a primary reason for the differences in the response to the crying student.

If I want the student to achieve my curriculum, then I will support them through that as much as possible with motivation and encouragement. In the case of the crying student, my response is to nurture them. If I want them to set their own goals and use me to achieve them, then I will allow them to compose themselves and come to me with the questions that will lead to their success. In the case of the crying student, I will challenge them instead of nurture them.

Hope this helps.

James.

[jBirch]

Oh dang... give me a minute to catch up to you Ordway.

James.