Frustruated Fencer

[SpyderLily]

Being a relatively new fencer of about the same age, I've had those moments where I've wanted to break down into tears. Unless you were obnoxious or rude to her, her getting upset is no fault of yours. Most of what needs to happen is up to her, although you reassuring her and telling her what she's doing right is definitely something you need to do. Also, maybe she was already having a bad day. Perhaps, being a college student, she'd had a rough test that day or something of the like. I've had days like that, and being in that mindset really hurts your fencing. Give her some time and try to do your best to make her feel like she's accomplishing something, but don't give her any excessive special treatment. She has to make up her mind that it's something she wants and realize that it takes some hard work and some frustration along the way.

Recently, a fencer from my college club team decided to "take a break from fencing," but it wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't return. She was having trouble with various concepts and got upset after every bout she lost. She was very interested in the sport, but it wasn't fun to her anymore because it frustrated her so. I don't know the answer to her situation. I wish I did, but the bottom line is that most of it's up to her.

As for the girl you coach, do you're best to make her feel like she's accomplishing something, but aside from that, there's not a lot that I think you can do. However, when it comes to who she bouts, I don't see anything wrong with her bouting you, but have her bout other new people to where perhaps she can gain some confidence. Ever since I started fencing, I bouted everyone a little. It made me feel comfortable to fence people at the same level, but it also was a wonderful learning experience to bout my coach and other experienced individuals on the team.

I hope this helps a little.

[erik_blank]

I get the feeling that I need to explain a bit about my methods and practice schedules, (and probably open myself up to a LOT of criticism in the process).

First, about the club where I teach:

This is a University club sport that I have been participating in for 10 years now. I got my start in fencing here, and have held positions of treasurer, VP, and President as a student. During this time, our club was pretty much self-taught. We had holdovers from the old University team that had helped us get our start, but after they left us (my first year) we were left with working from instructional film loops (circa 1950? pretty neat things, but the equipment needed to show them broke down our third year there and never got repaired) books, and what ever we could pick up from going to competitions in "the big city."

After graduation, I assumed the role of coach, firstly because I REALLY ENJOY teaching the sport, I wanted to continue fencing and the club had no-one else to turn to (not to mention that I had no job prospects outside of the little town I was in at the time.)

What this really means is that the club is very fluid in its membership, and has twice since my start with them has shrunk down to 2-3 members simply due to attrition and interpersonal fallings out. (See my earlier post on why I will not get involved with other fencers in the club - I managed to learn from other people here... ) Since I married and now have kids, I am limited to attending only one practice a week (until the munchkins can start taking more care of themselves and (even better) get involved in fencing themselves).

Now on to actual practices:

With the three hours that I have to work with, I usually start out with semi-structured group lessons like line drills of footwork, and parry repost drills. I try to get my intermediate and advanced people to assist in these drills so that new people have someone that (is supposed to) know what he/she is doing to mimic and work with.

I then try to introduce new ideas to the beginner fencers and work on these ideas until the first hour is over. At that time, I try to turn these people loose so that I can concentrate on the more advanced members and advanced lessons.

The third hour is reserved to open fencing using our eclectic strips.

I encourage ANYONE that feels ready (and has gotten through the basic walking/parry-repost lessons) to participate in these "bouts." I never try to pressure people into taking the strip (and will often try to suggest that the NOT take the strip until they have a bit more practice under their belt - double standard here I know).

Now on to our initial reason for starting this thread:

The fencer in question has been fencing for 1 ½ semesters with the club, and has been in a number of practice bouts previously, including with myself. She had previously been pretty good (for her level of fencing) and would often score at least one hit against me while I was practicing with her in the “competitive” bouting at the end of the class. While I have seen her frustrated before, it was never at this level.

I asked her about what had happened after the bout and she said that this was just an expression of her frustration, and that it was nothing that I had done to cause it.

Whew… (dismounting soapbox – end of rant mode)

I guess that my real question through all this is simply: What kinds of encouragement techniques do people use out there for people that are prone to such semi-debilitating frustrations?

[Fencergrl]

As mentioned by another poster, breaking down an action helps. If I were dealing with this fencer, I would have stopped the bout, when it looked like she wasn’t understanding what action you were trying to get her to do, and move into drilling mode (again breaking down the action).

Once it looks like she understands the action, you could go back to practicing at full speed. If she’s still having trouble, it might be best to just leave it alone for now. Tell her it’s something for her to think about and that you will drill her on it next week. Finish off with a drill on something she’s good at, so you finish on a positive note.

Everyone has elements of fencing they struggle with. Whether it is something that is introduced on one of your “off” days or it’s just something you have trouble grasping.

[erik_blank]

Fencergrl:

I want to thank you for all your posts so far. they have been insightful and at times quite reassuring!

The fencer in question did compose herself after her cry, and managed to face the next two points without further breakdowns.

I guess that I have just invested so much of myself into this club that I am desperate to hold on to as many fencers as possible. Since this is University club sport,the turnover is incredibly high, On a good year if we retain 1 out of every 20 people that show up for the first practice I think of it as a good recruiting year. This means that the loss of a fencer after having him/her attend a full semster with us really hurts. not financially mind you - this is all volunteer for me. Jus tthe fact that we have lost someone that was a good friend/fencing partner means that our club becomes that more insular and less diverse.

[KD5MDK]

The third hour is reserved to open fencing using our eclectic strips.

Your club must be in interesting circumstances to use eclectic strips.

[jBirch]

Erik,

You don't need to justify yourself to anyone. The emotional aspects of the problem you presented are just as important as the technical. *grin* No one knew you were happily married and few of us know any recreational coaches at university under the age of 30. It's a fair suggestion to help you out.

Your choice of bouting that particular student might have been incorrect. Specifically if she has been fencing for 1.5 semesters, parry/riposte should be instinctive. Without that background, a fencer having trouble with parry/riposte is exceptionally inexperienced and cannon-fodder for the coach. Most situations (not yours) where this happens is essentially a poor coach bolstering their ego by whupping their newbies.

Another comment you might find helpful: one of the high-calibre coaches out here used to hold lessons with their baby strapped to their back. When it could walk, it was doing footwork. *grin* Munchkins be damned.

Originally Posted by erik_blank

Now on to our initial reason for starting this thread:

The fencer in question has been fencing for 1 ½ semesters with the club, and has been in a number of practice bouts previously, including with myself. She had previously been pretty good (for her level of fencing) and would often score at least one hit against me while I was practicing with her in the “competitive” bouting at the end of the class. While I have seen her frustrated before, it was never at this level.

This indicates an intense desire to do well. Build on that. It also indicates an inability to deal with failure. Work on that.

I guess that my real question through all this is simply: What kinds of encouragement techniques do people use out there for people that are prone to such semi-debilitating frustrations?

Depends on the context.

Fencers that get frustrated with acquiring new skills often need to be educated on the learning curve for skills acquisition: initial phase - rapid achievement, integration phase - decline in achievement, synthesis phase - really rapid achievement. She should know that she is just plateauing and it is natural. Keep working at it and it'll go away.

Fencers that get worked up in the context of a bout need to have more skills at their disposal. If they have more possible responses to a tough opponent, they can try more things before "giving up".

The frustration is natural and nothing to be worried about. Far more concerning for your student's progress is her "giving up".

On that issue, there's not much you can do except keep encouraging her to fight back. For this particular problem, I've used the Soviet style "yell at them until they are too pissed off to think" with some success. It's risky though and they need to finish the exercise with some earned achievement. I kept one student a half hour late after class, just yelling at them and repeating the same drill, until they finally got the movement correct. You should have seen the smile and tears on her face! Got a convert for life out of that exercise (and a bit of a monster now).

The caution is that if she had not been able to achieve that technique, I would have destroyed her spirit. Like I said: risky.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

This means that the loss of a fencer after having him/her attend a full semster with us really hurts. not financially mind you - this is all volunteer for me. Jus tthe fact that we have lost someone that was a good friend/fencing partner means that our club becomes that more insular and less diverse.

Erik... Just be positive. People who feel good about the sport they are participating in hang around... even if they don't think they're very good.

It’s hard when you’re new, and you see others who are better than you. You forget that they’ve been doing it much longer than you… you just see yourself as “not good at this”.

I like to encourage club mates to help each other as well. It's all team building and it helps people feel like they “belong”.

This is the first sport I have ever played that wasn't a team effort, so I tend to approach my coaching and my fencing with my club mates from this perspective. Even still… it catches me by surprise what an impact this has on the fencers I coach and fence with.

[lindajdunn]

What works for me that may or may not have any bearing upon your fencers:

I've been fencing for 1.5 years, I'm an older fencer, and I am often frustrated at my inability to do something simple. I'm in a small but growing club and fence sabre. Almost everyone else is a teenager.

When we're having problems the coach will often set us a task that we can do on our own. I spent 15 minutes after my last lesson taking the paint off a door frame. Explicitly, I kept failing with the parry 4 riposte and thus the coach put me by the door such that if I parry 4ed and riposted at an imaginary opponent standing there in front of me, then I hit the doorframe each time I parried too far. In time, I began to FEEL how far to my left the parry should go. I still haven't got it yet, but I'm doing better than I was before.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

Mr. Epee:
First, sorry that I haven't replied to this posting since I first put it out here. I've been unable to get to a computer for quite some time.

Ok....

Originally Posted by erik blanco

Now then.. hummm where to start?
1: I am married, and happily so. The student is not, but is (as far as I know) in a relationship. Either way, non of my business. I do not have now, nor have ever had a "crush" on this (more than 20 years my junior) female student. I have ALWAYS maed it a policy to keep myself out of inter-club relationships, and I have ALWAYS felt it to be a "stupid" thing to try to do. Way too much potential for bad relationships to destroy a club, especially in a University environment where we are at the whims of the student population for new and continuing recruits.

Being married with kids is not a bullet-proof plan to avoid becoming emotionally invested in a much younger co-ed.

I'm not much of a crier, myself, but I can't begin to imagine how pissed/ashamed I would be if my coach went online and posted a detailed description of my complete emotional break-down. You coach in a very small club, and are posting here by name. You have violated this poor girls privacy. Shame. Shame.

Originally Posted by Erk

2. I "bout" against student when I feel that they are ready for some introduction to competitive fencing. I usually try to maintain my attacks/defenses to their level of experience so that what is a "competitive" event for them is actually a learning experience.

This is a poor idea, but that has already been explained.

I have read a lot of the posts today, and I have felt taht there is a LOT of very good opinions and suggestions out there. I thank those that have had the ability to go beyond the crass allegations and defamations to my character. I feel that they have been very helpfull, and I hope to be able to directly respond to them soon.

Crass Allegations? Defamations?

Either you have a funny sense of humor or your bandana is tied a little too tight, Bub.

[Purple Fencer]

Re your student not being able to land the point...

1) Let her cry herself out first...when she's so emotionally upset, she most likely won;t be able to think clearly. When she's recovered, then you can start examining what's going on. I usually ask my students "why do you think you're missing?" Gets them directly involved in solving their problem...and they may realize something YOU'RE not seeing.

2) If they're learning a new skill set (like riposting to a different position) nthey may see a drop in their ability to perform the drill...this is totally typical...they need to know this.

3) Everyone has a bad day...or 2 or 3

Re fencing your students...I usually end a lesson with a bout, letting the student decide on how many touches. I want them to try and apploy what we went over in the lesson. I won't throw out anything they haven't been taught, but I also don't give away touches, either.

Often times I'll beat them, but at other times they beat me...one time my female teenager beat me in 4 15 touch nouts in a row...i still have her.

And why SHOULDN'T I bout with my students....how else are the goign to get exposure to fencing someone better than they in a tourney sitch??

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Fencers that get frustrated with acquiring new skills often need to be educated on the learning curve for skills acquisition: initial phase - rapid achievement, integration phase - decline in achievement, synthesis phase - really rapid achievement. She should know that she is just plateauing and it is natural. Keep working at it and it'll go away.

Absolutely. The single most important thing my novice coach told me, as a beginning fencer, was the concept of the plateau. It helped me get through a frustrating period when my squadmates were all apparently progressing much faster than I was, and has been a useful concept ever since.

Just the reassurance that "this is normal" is important. I had a fencing student this week who was clearly somewhat disturbed by the fact that she couldn't get her feet to consistently do exactly what her brain was telling them to do (moving smoothly forward in an attack). When I explained that this was completely normal, and simply part of the learning process as the brain lays down new neural pathways for the new body movements, you should have seen the look of relief on her face.

It also helps if you can provide examples from your own learning experiences. I do that all the time. "I had the same problem..." is tremendously reassuring from the coach: it clearly shows that a) the fencer is not some defective freak of nature, and b) it is possible to correct it and become a good fencer.

Heck, my own coach just did that last night, when he was working with me on improving my parry 5 - pointing out that it had taken him a long time to break the habit of taking a sweeping 5 (which is what I tend to do) and instead take a straight-up 5. Made me feel better.

It does take a certain self-confidence to use one's own mistakes and past screw-ups to help educate others, so that's something that should only be used if you're totally OK with it and don't feel that you have anything to prove. (Using "you" in the general sense here, not directed at any specific poster.)

[larry hurdiss]

i agree with fencergrl.
let's ask the student to participate in this thread.
Only she (might) knows why she cried.
and, while we are at it, are'nt all our assumptions and opinions incredibly interesting?
e.g. no one responded to the assumption of a "crush".
and the entire gender/ physique stuff.
and since when is crying "emotionally weak"?
as opposed to those who are "emotionally constipated" and NEVER cry.
sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesshhhh~!~ !!~
lol
"all generalities, including this one, are false".....Pogo

[The Fish]

I think people are reading a lot into this.