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DesertFencer · 02-28-2006, 09:13 PM

I'd like to know if anyone out there has any experience, knowledge or opinion of this course. Assuming that a graduating instructor performs as he was taught at the school, would he be able to lead a respectable class?

Do you think if the new instructor's beginning students would be lost if they went on to higher levels of training with a more proficient coach after a basic class?

Here's the link to the course info: http://www.usfacoaching.org/.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 02-28-2006, 09:28 PM

If you dont have very much experience fencing at all, you may learn some things. Really though, these coaching courses all over the place, they don't replace actual experience.

I dislike it when people take a week long course and believe that this qualifies them to teach. School teachers go to school for multiple YEARS to learn how to teach, and yet we accept a coaches college certificate as proof that you are competent. Would you expect a school teacher to go to college for a week and come back with the ability to teach 8th grade math?

Trying to cram all the pedagogy/sports science into a week is a futile attempt, and you would probably be better off just hanging out with a good coach, and picking his or her brain.

darius · 02-28-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Trying to cram all the pedagogy/sports science into a week is a futile attempt, and you would probably be better off just hanging out with a good coach, and picking his or her brain.

Let's phrase that argument a different way: Trying to cram all the conditioning/footwork/drilling/bouting into a week is a futile attempt, and you would probably be better off just training with a good coach.

But for some reason, people consider fencing camps to be a good thing. Why would CC be any different? It affords the opportunity for folks to meet with accomplished members of the coaching community and do the aforementioned brain-picking.

darius

larkmaj · 02-28-2006, 11:43 PM

The "Become a Fencing Instructor" would not make you a coach, or even certify you to be one (I think). It is intended to educate PE teachers so they can teach fencing as a PE course. You're better off taking Foil L1 2 weeks later, which will give you the opportunity to be certified as a L1 foil coach.

rcmatthews · 03-01-2006, 12:00 AM

Well, I would challenge the argument that having a coaches certificate makes people automatically assume you are a coach. A one week class, doesn't make you a coach (even a poor one), just as a one week fencing camp doesn't make you a fencer.

RITFencing · 03-01-2006, 12:03 AM

When I was there for coach's college last summer, I saw a bit of the BAFI thing going on. It seemed like a really good introduction for people who were like high school gym teachers or scout leaders or whatever looking to introduce a bit of fencing, but for anyone with any fencing experience at all, it would probably be better to try the level 1 foil (or epee or sabre) course.

larkmaj · 03-01-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Well, I would challenge the argument that having a coaches certificate makes people automatically assume you are a coach. A one week class, doesn't make you a coach (even a poor one), just as a one week fencing camp doesn't make you a fencer.

Well, it's not just the course that makes you a coach, there is the certification exam after the course. Passing that should warrent some merit, though I don't know how tough it is.

RITFencing · 03-01-2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

If you dont have very much experience fencing at all, you may learn some things. Really though, these coaching courses all over the place, they don't replace actual experience.

I dislike it when people take a week long course and believe that this qualifies them to teach. School teachers go to school for multiple YEARS to learn how to teach, and yet we accept a coaches college certificate as proof that you are competent. Would you expect a school teacher to go to college for a week and come back with the ability to teach 8th grade math?

Trying to cram all the pedagogy/sports science into a week is a futile attempt, and you would probably be better off just hanging out with a good coach, and picking his or her brain.

Yes, it's impossible to cram all of that into a week or three of study; that's why everyone who goes to coaches college already has years of fencing experience and in most cases a few years of coaching experience under their belts. What they do, especially in the level 1 courses, isn't so much build everyone from the ground up as make sure they're competent in teaching a cirriculum and give advice and pointers.

KD5MDK · 03-01-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Well, I would challenge the argument that having a coaches certificate makes people automatically assume you are a coach. A one week class, doesn't make you a coach (even a poor one), just as a one week fencing camp doesn't make you a fencer.

Actually, I'd say picking up a weapon and entering a competition makes you a fencer. There's just no certainly you'll be any good.

Going to coaches college doesn't prove you're a good coach. But it does give a coach a good chance to become a lot better.

DesertFencer · 03-01-2006, 02:13 AM

My intent is not to come home from a week-long school, don black leathers and call myself "coach." I have tremendous respect for the coaches of our sport. When I was 12 I had the honor of watching Nick Toth coach some of the hardcore fencers in my club before the 1983 nationals.

There are some great clubs within 2-4 hours of where I live, but I've been out of the sport so long that I really need to review the basics. A "camp" environment is a great way to focus and process a lot of information, at least for me. I'd like to get a small club rolling again and it would be more easily done with some degree of teaching ability.

keropie · 03-01-2006, 02:21 AM

You'd still probably be better off with one of the level 1 courses, but what I'd really do is contact the coaches college and ask them what they think.

DesertFencer · 03-01-2006, 02:23 AM

That sounds like the best plan from what everyone has said. I appreciate the info!

KD5MDK · 03-01-2006, 02:24 AM

If you already have some decent fencing experience, I'd say the L1 certification is probably better. The courses aimed at PE teachers are really for a different audience.

Edit: Too slow!

Anyway, to explain my thinking further:
A course for people who are already teachers will be focused on "What to teach".
A course for people who know fencing will focus on "How to teach fencing".

They are different skills, and depending on what you already know, different things are appropriate.

rcmatthews · 03-01-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larkmaj

Well, it's not just the course that makes you a coach, there is the certification exam after the course. Passing that should warrent some merit, though I don't know how tough it is.

Why should it warrant some merit? Having passed a test doesn't make you a coach either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Actually, I'd say picking up a weapon and entering a competition makes you a fencer. There's just no certainly you'll be any good.

Going to coaches college doesn't prove you're a good coach. But it does give a coach a good chance to become a lot better.

Why do they have to enter a competition? If they just touch a weapon at a practice, why cant they be a fencer?

I make a distinction between "someone who participates in fencing" and a "fencer". IN order for me to consider someone a "fencer", they have to have basic skills, compete (doesnt have to be tournaments) regularly, and make a genuine effort to improve themselves. Otherwise, your just going through the motions, like a gorilla that can do sign language.

Mr Epee · 03-01-2006, 11:54 AM

The HS instructor program is an excellent concept.

There are several teachers in my area that are interested in learning to teach fencing, and sometime this summer I will be putting together a short program to help them out with the basics.

These people are not going to be managing fencing programs at their schools. For the most part their objective is to offer a 2-6 week program as part of their regular P.E. instruction curriculum.

I worked one of these sessions last year, and it was obvious that once the course outline was completed, that it would not take an excellent fencing coach to oversee the program. The kids loved the course, and it was a huge value added to their educational experience. In fact, it was so well received that we received a front page write up, with large colour pics, in the Neighbors section of our local newspaper.

The landscape of P.E. instruction is changing rapidly. Most P.E. teachers are working hard to shed the image of the fat guy who tosses a ball in the middle of the room and spends the rest of the time sitting in the corner. The type of instructor certification is exactly the sort of program that can be very useful in reinforcing the image that most teachers are seeking. And it's great exposure for the sport of fencing.

There are specific marketing theories that strongly support marketing to educators, because they are such excellent/natural disseminators of information - not just in the classroom.

Teachers teach.

It's a great concept, and I hope it becomes a successful program.

These people are not going to be cranking out champions, but the can provide an important introduction to the sport.

larkmaj · 03-01-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Why should it warrant some merit? Having passed a test doesn't make you a coach either.

I didn't say it makes you a coach. However, I would assume that the exam is some test of the person's coaching ability. Passing an exam is supposed to prove a person's ability in a certain area, so if somebody passes a coaching exam it does show some merit to that person's coaching ability.

rcmatthews · 03-01-2006, 12:15 PM

I disagree. It may be an indication of some coaching ability. Or it may be an indication that you understand the weeks worth of material that was presented. Or it may be a reward for paying the money to go to the coaches college.

I am slightly curious about two things. How many people don't pass the final exam at the coaches college, on average? And, how many top level coaches have a certification?

darius · 03-01-2006, 12:39 PM

A *lot* of top coaches have some sort of certification; either some sort of Fencing Master's diploma, or a college degree which, from what I know of the Eastern European sports system, was fairly heavy in fencing.

Now, whether there are top coaches who have attended the USFA Coaches' College, I don't know.

darius

Allen Evans · 03-01-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darius

Now, whether there are top coaches who have attended the USFA Coaches' College, I don't know.

I suppose that it depends on what you consider a "top coach". Gary Copeland, for instance, was a student at Coach's College before he became one of the teachers there.

darius · 03-01-2006, 12:50 PM

Shoulda put a disclaimer on that. I'd consider anybody on the National Coaching staff reasonably well-qualified.

Allen, congrats on Tom's performance at JOs ... that was a nice bout against Zach Schirtz in the quarterfinals!

darius