USFA "Become a Foil Instructor"

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

How many people don't pass the final exam at the coaches college, on average?

I only have anecdotal evidence about who passes and who doesn't (from having attended many sessions of Coach's College). At the Level 1 classes, all three of my classes were pretty large (20-30). One or two people from each of these classes didn't take the final test (either the written or the practical). An additional one or two did not pass the written, making them ineligable for the practical. Finally, one or two in each of my Level 1 classes did not pass the practical. Say an minimum of 3, maximum of 5 people, did not walk out of these classes with a certificate as a Level 1 coach.

In the higher Levels (3 and 4) the classes were much smaller. The classes were also made up of people actively coaching fencing, or were competitive fencers, unlike my Level 1 classes, which often had relative beginning level fencers enrolled. Of the four classes at this level that I've taken, only one or two people failed to pass, and they failed the practical after passing the written.

[rcmatthews]

Allen, thats pretty much what I was thinking (guessing) about people passing.

About top coaches, I was more curious as to if any of the national team coaches have attended coaches college, but a coach known through public acclamation to be a top level coach would certainly qualify as "top" in my book.

[jessicasimpson]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I am slightly curious about two things. How many people don't pass the final exam at the coaches college, on average? And, how many top level coaches have a certification?

The last time I was there for a level 4 class, 3 out of 9 failed the practical exam at the end I remember 2 failing a level one (over 20 people), I remember 1 failing a level 2 (out of 10) and everyone passed in level 3 (out of6 or 7). But I also remember all the hours of study sessions the Levels 1's had almost every night trying to pass.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

what kind of stuff is on the test?

[RITFencing]

Which part, the written or the practical?

For level 1 epee, the written consisted of mostly terminology, rules and basic concepts while the practical consisted firstly of you getting a few different footwork actions, (advance lunge, etc) demonstrating and explaining them and secondly of you giving a private lesson to one of the other students on a random subject. The subjects are pretty broad (mine was compound actions) and so you have some leeway to deicde what to do.

[jessicasimpson]

Some example questions that I remember are "how many meters between the center line and the warning line?" "what is an invitation" "how far must the point travel before a touch is registerd?" "what is the correct way to perform an advance?" all multiple choice, about 75-100 questions.
In level 2 and up, the written is about 10 essay questions, the practical gets much harder. Like get your student to go through a series of actions at 6 differant distances with 6 different footwork patterns

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I disagree. It may be an indication of some coaching ability. Or it may be an indication that you understand the weeks worth of material that was presented. Or it may be a reward for paying the money to go to the coaches college.

RC, I'm not sure where you're coming from. In the US anyone can set themselves up as a fencing coach without any background in fencing. There are no laws or practical controls which prevent them from doing so. It is very common to find fencers who set themselves up as coaches, matre'd, maestros etc. with no coaching training. And YES there is a BIG difference between being a fencer and being a coach no matter what level you achieve as a fencer. Prior to the USFA offering coaches college the USFCA (I've been told) offered credential testing on occasional weekends, or series of weekends. And two universities offered programs on a part-time basis. Of those I believe San Jose State is the only still doing so and it's a part time course offered in the Drama Dept with an emphasis on the classical Italian (Aldo Nadi) approach to fencing. I'm not meaning to "dis" the San Jose State approach as my first coach was a graduate and I'm still very pleased with the fundamentals I learned from him.

My point is that USFA's Coaches College provides in one week doses, concentrated focus on one weapon at one level and then tests that the students have that reached that level of the art. (In most cases I felt the students were already above the level before they started.) What CC does best is to provide a standard and see that the student has been exposed/grounded in what the college has determined as necessary for a given level.

BTW, my coach studied for three years in Russia to become a fencing coach. Do my two weeks at CC with passes to level II epee make me his equal?? I certainly don't believe so. But at Cal - where I assist him - the credentials that CC gives out make life a bit easier with the bureacracy. And my coach has photocopied and reviewed all the material that CC passed out as a way to make sure he was in line with american coaching practices.

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I am slightly curious about two things. How many people don't pass the final exam at the coaches college, on average? And, how many top level coaches have a certification?

There are always a few that don't pass. In my Epee level I class one older gentleman - almost as old as me - failed the written exam. (In an entirely different thread I'll speak to complaints about CC and especially the testing ). In my level II class one fairly young student just up and left after two days. Said good bye to one of the women and we never saw him again. BTW, the first couple of days at CC I lost 10 lbs. Unfortunately I found the cafeteria and put them back on.

I'm not sure there's any way to guess how many top level coaches have certification as there hasn't been a standard certification process. I did note Coach Abdel Salem, USAFA, was in attendance at the Black Star session that was on-going in the same gym as our epee level II sessions. And from what I could see in my spare moments they were having a very interesting session in advanced epee.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Prior to the USFA offering coaches college the USFCA (I've been told) offered credential testing on occasional weekends, or series of weekends.

The USFCA sill does this. Some might say that this is the primary activity of the USFCA currently.

-B

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

The USFCA sill does this. Some might say that this is the primary activity of the USFCA currently.

-B

Including the USFCA

[rcmatthews]

What I am getting at is that I think outsiders could get the impression that if someone does not attend the coaches college, they are not a legitimate coach. And that is simply not the case. You shouldn't expect to be a coach after going to coaches college, or taking some class at a university. I don't even think spending three years training in Russia or whatever other European country is producing lots of "fencing masters" makes you a coach. Years of experience are what make a coach. I also believe that to be a good coach, you have to have been a fairly good fencer yourself.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Including the USFCA :mutant:

Mmmmm, I'd say the USFCA says that they serve a number of important functions, of which this is only one, and perhaps not even the primary. I was actually rather careful with how I worded my previous statement. :)

-B

[Allen Evans]

(laughing) I once rather aggressively pushed a USFCA Vice-President about why they did not do more coaching education. I was told that there were all sorts of ramifications about establishing a "school" or "schools" for fencing coaches, and that the USFCA exsisted solely to certify coaches in the USA, and that this was their primarily mission.

Hence my response.

I knew you were being careful Ouiyt, but I couldn't resist!

[oso97]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I also believe that to be a good coach, you have to have been a fairly good fencer yourself.

Depends on what level you're talking about and how it relates.

Do you think it is possible for a coach to successfully guide a student to a higher level of competition than he ever acheived himself?

Ummm... yes, I'd argue it is. And there's quite a number of examples. Not to mention, if it weren't possible, then fencing as a sport would never get any 'better.'

[KD5MDK]

Don't know know that the fencing of today will never be as good as the fencing of (1960, 1930, 1910, 1880, 1785, 1649, 1100...)?

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by oso97

Depends on what level you're talking about and how it relates.

Do you think it is possible for a coach to successfully guide a student to a higher level of competition than he ever acheived himself?

Yes. Absolutely. You don't necessarily have to have been a world champion to be able to train one.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Yes. Absolutely. You don't necessarily have to have been a world champion to be able to train one.

see follow up in different thread...

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Don't know know that the fencing of today will never be as good as the fencing of (1960, 1930, 1910, 1880, 1785, 1649, 1100...)?

The fencing is absolutely superior; it is unclear whether or not the ability to murder is superior.

[KD5MDK]

We have have the Maxim gun and they have not. Don't worry about murdering abilities.