Referee Question of the day?

[Padawan]

In an effort to educate the potential referee pool for all fencing community, let's go over one question a day, possible answers that people have heard and then what the correct answer is. Now it would be really great if someone from the FOC would chime in and even give some examples of phases and how the actions would be called. I know that this is not as good as actually watching the fencing happen but it is a start. Maybe in the future Craig could upload a fencing clip in which the correct call could told at the end. If fencing.net is "the" place for everyone to get there information, maybe it can also be using to develop a uniform training platform for referees. Just a thought?

[Mr Epee]

This won't work.

[jdoiv]

a good idea if we stuck with descriptions similar to what is in the referee study guide. I think it will be difficult if we get too complicated in describing a phrase. Maybe, we should try to find someone on the FOC that would be willing to moderate an area on the site similar to the armory section. The idea of adding video clips is nice, but I think it would be best if the video was reviewed by the FOC first. That might also cause a problem for Craig as it would be bandwidth intensive.

[Epee Scherma]

OK here is the referee question of the day:
Fencer A fleches from the back end of the strip to the other end of where his opponent is... it is a very slow fleche with many multiple extensions.

The fleche is so long and so slow that it takes a full two minutes for A to reach his opponent.

Fencer B does a foward flip over A while simultaneously hitting him on his heel upon landing. It is all one action.

As B was flipping through the air, A's weapon catches B in the crotch mid-flip.

Both have green and red lights go off. Whos touch is it?!??!?!?!?!??!

Yep this thread definately not going to work.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

OK here is the referee question of the day:
Fencer A fleches from the back end of the strip to the other end of where his opponent is... it is a very slow fleche with many multiple extensions.

The fleche is so long and so slow that it takes a full two minutes for A to reach his opponent.

Fencer B does a foward flip over A while simultaneously hitting him on his heel upon landing. It is all one action.

As B was flipping through the air, A's weapon catches B in the crotch mid-flip.

Both have green and red lights go off. Whos touch is it?!??!?!?!?!??!

Yep this thread definately not going to work.

Is this foil or epee?

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

OK here is the referee question of the day:
Fencer A fleches from the back end of the strip to the other end of where his opponent is... it is a very slow fleche with many multiple extensions.

The fleche is so long and so slow that it takes a full two minutes for A to reach his opponent.

Fencer B does a foward flip over A while simultaneously hitting him on his heel upon landing. It is all one action.

As B was flipping through the air, A's weapon catches B in the crotch mid-flip.

Both have green and red lights go off. Whos touch is it?!??!?!?!?!??!

Yep this thread definately not going to work.

I know this wasn't a serious question, but I couldn't resist.

In sabre, Fencer A gets a yellow card for fleching.

In epee and foil, Fencer B gets a Group II red card for a dangerous fencing action.

[Allen Evans]

Two minutes to reach the opponent? A halt is called at the end of the first minute and the fencer is given a card for passivity.

[Epee Scherma]

It was a trick question! It was a double touch because its epee. Epee is the weapon where referees neglect to call passivity and you can do crazy moves because ROW does not matter! YEAH go EPEE...

Join Today.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Padawan

Maybe in the future Craig could upload a fencing clip in which the correct call could told at the end.

Do a search on "You make the call". There were a couple of threads with foil actions where some on this board continued to argue with the call even after I got the call handed down from the FOC and Sergei Golubitsky (who just happens to have his international "A" referee rating in foil.)

Needless to say, those of us who actually listen to the FOC and those with international credentials were disappointed. (And it's another reason why some of the top officials don't participate directly.)

Craig

[Gav]

Craig,

I remember that well. I suppose we could be tough and and close threads after such rulings. The implication of the ruling could be discussed in another thread. Although some people refuse to back down from a fight - not even acknowledging that they are wrong - so that might be contentious.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

a good idea if we stuck with descriptions similar to what is in the referee study guide. I think it will be difficult if we get too complicated in describing a phrase. Maybe, we should try to find someone on the FOC that would be willing to moderate an area on the site similar to the armory section. The idea of adding video clips is nice, but I think it would be best if the video was reviewed by the FOC first. That might also cause a problem for Craig as it would be bandwidth intensive.

I'm not worried about bandwidth for these kind of videos. If you have some actions on video that would make a good candidate for referee calls, please let me know and we'll figure out how to get them loaded to me and then get an FOC rep to review and provide the official answer/interpretation.

Craig

[MyrddinsPrecint]

the questions from the ref study guide (http://fencingofficials.org/Document...uide_MAR05.pdf) might be easier to manage in this kind of format-- for one thing, there exist correct answers.

then again, many of these questions are rediculously easy, and many people on the forum would probably prefer questions more difficult than even the most difficult on the study guide....

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Craig

Do a search on "You make the call". There were a couple of threads with foil actions where some on this board continued to argue with the call even after I got the call handed down from the FOC and Sergei Golubitsky (who just happens to have his international "A" referee rating in foil.)

Needless to say, those of us who actually listen to the FOC and those with international credentials were disappointed. (And it's another reason why some of the top officials don't participate directly.)

Craig

We could maybe make this work, but I'm not willing to put forth much effort...which I think is normally what kills these ideas. That and silly questions about fencers doing front flips as their opponent oozes down the strip with the speed of the Blob in the original film.

• People post to this thread with RoW scenarios.
• We use this thread to refine the questions.
• Craig tries to involve someone from the FOC to answer the questions.
• Somebody else gets some fencers together once a month or so and records video of the actions and alternatives described to the best of their ability.
• The video is uploaded.
• The FOC people who gave the original write up then try to watch and indicate which video clips illustrate which parts of the initial write up.
• The write up is updated with the clips that best illustrate the points of the write up.

So, we take all of the "what is preparation" questions in foil and sabre, questions about covering target in various strange ways, questions about falling, etc. All of the things that come up on the board. Especially the things that come up repeatedly.

We don't try to provide answers in this thread. We just try to gather a clearly stated question/situation that needs a ruling. Perhaps it's more of a general discussion of RoW and preparation or a "how long after he scores does the fencer have to remain standing to not be yellow carded" kind of question. We just gather up the types of things that were discussed previously and ensure that we point out any things that need to be emphasized.

The FOC reps don't have to post to the thread. Craig can take the "final" refined questions and hand them over to the FOC rep. They can send him a written response that will just go under the current "Ask the Expert" section of the site.

*After* the initial write up, someone who has solid fencers with good control and clean actions and who also has the equipment and technical skills (any volunteers?), gets a few fencers together to try to recreate the various situations. So, if the write up explains various things that a referee is looking for when calling preparation, they try to do nice, moderate speed actions that show all of the different preparations...and things that are sometimes mistaken for preparation but should not be called as prepration.

The video team needs experienced competitors. I'd try to pick people with good, clean actions so that the demos are clear. They also have to have enough self control to do actions that they normally would not. Some fencers are great but are terrible at immitating a mistake or at changing the tempo that they'd naturally do the action themselves.

The video team also needs to know what their doing on the video side. Good camera. Good lighting. Mutliple angles if possible. Post production work to extract good candidate clips and upload them for Craig.

Once Craig has good, clean video clips, then he could forward that video to the FOC rep who wrote the original article. They could then make a call on each clip. I guess Craig would then need to take the ones that show distinct points of the article and attach them to the Ask the Expert article in some way.

Like I said, it sounds like a lot of work. It requires someone who wants to do the work and who also happens to have the expertise and opportunity (fencers, good space for recording, etc.) to volunteer on the video side of things.

Of course, if we really did this, then we could just point people to the Ask the Experts articles instead of repeating long threads on RoW nuances and other rules discussions.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by tbryan

We don't try to provide answers in this thread. We just try to gather a clearly stated question/situation that needs a ruling. Perhaps it's more of a general discussion of RoW and preparation or a "how long after he scores does the fencer have to remain standing to not be yellow carded" kind of question. We just gather up the types of things that were discussed previously and ensure that we point out any things that need to be emphasized.

By the way, inspired by the way Slashdot does interviews. People post replies that others moderate/vote up. The highest-rated questions are the ones that are given to the person being "interviewed" to answer.

To do something like that here, we'd really need a separate forum, I guess. One "situation" per thread. We could then then use the "rate thread" feature to bump the more refined questions to the top of the list when we're pretty much done figuring out what we're trying to ask.

A separate forum also may limit the needless prolonging of threads to refine the questions. Hopefully, the postings there would mostly be confined to people who are interested in this "project" and want to reduce the repetition of threads about basic refereeing questions on the general forum.

Anyway...just an idea.

[trazom]

Originally Posted by tbryan

The video team needs experienced competitors. I'd try to pick people with good, clean actions so that the demos are clear. They also have to have enough self control to do actions that they normally would not. Some fencers are great but are terrible at immitating a mistake or at changing the tempo that they'd naturally do the action themselves.

Personally I think that we would need a mixture. Some competitors experienced who can do a particular action / fault. Some competitors who do sloppy actions and are more likely to be less experienced.

I think it would be hard to get a fencer who knows how to do parries well to suddenly "flub" a parry without making it too obvious.

THBS, I think that this is something that could be well worth the effort. Maybe we could get fencing pictures to allow limited snips (with attribution) for a couple tough calls from their footage.

[Craig]

I've got a ton of footage of my own from some world cups in Moscow, St. Petersburg and last year's European Champs. Just have to review it and pick out some actions to use.

Craig

[lindajdunn]

I have a horrible memory... what was I saying?

Oh, yes. I have a horrible memory and I've been reading the manual, watching footage of the World Cups, directing at practices whenever possible, and trying to memorize (did I mention I have a horrible memory) the technical rules.

I fence sabre. When I take the practice exam, where CAN I find the correct answers? Or am I expected to simply read through the rules until I find the correct answer?

IMHO, this is not nearly as easy as studying for something like an A+ certification, where I can find multiple books, study guides, and interactive tests.

There's an exam opportunity in Richmond, KY coming up on April Fools Day. I'd like to be capable of passing the exam by then.

[jdoiv]

there is no answer key for the study guide that you can get your hands on. They want you to read through the rules. Is there a seminar at the same time as the testing in Richmond? If so, when and where and how much. I would like to attend. As I understand it, you have to go through the seminar to take the test.

[Peach]

Sit down and puzzle through the questions with a copy of the rule book at hand, putting Post-It notes or highlighting the relevant sections. Figure out what the most likely answers are. Read and re-read to see if you can nail down the answers. Then find an experienced national-level referee and discuss the questions you haven't settled. Then find another referee and do it again. Ask those referees about questions that cause problems for people, and get them to tell you why.

The idea is to understand the answers in light of the rule book, rather than to memorize the right answers.

[fencergal33]

Also.....some of the questions are (or were) here on fencing.net to take a "practice quiz".