Hosting our first tournament

[El Chucko]

After running a half-dozen intrasalle tournaments, my coach and I want to invite others to compete at our club.

Our facility is not huge, the club is only a 2-3 years old, and we're in a city that is not exactly a fencing Mecca (yet), so we figured we would start out with something fairly small. Until we can work out all the bugs, there is no point in attracting hundreds of fencers from 200 miles away, only to annoy them and embarrass ourselves. On the other hand, we would like it to be as "official" as possible, including USFA sanctioning.

My question is this: can we host an Invitational tournament, where we only invite a handful of clubs in the region, and still be eligible for USFA sanctioning?

I know that, of course, one can't just run tournaments within their own club or whatever to increase their own ratings by excluding outside fencers. But, how do you make sure that a tournament doesn't get too big, but still keep it fair?

There is one other problem. There are a few other small clubs and teams in our city that we would love to join us for this event, but there is one individual that is simply not welcome. Among many other things, this person has owed our club money for damaging our equipment for over a year now, and has yet to make any effort to pay. The rest of their group is welcome, of course.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[hpfencing]

I would not qworry about numbes, leave the tournament open to all but only PUSH it with the club you want to attend.. you may have one or two here and there from other clubs but that'll keep it with-in the number range you want...

[CvilleFencer]

Well, there are some problems with what you want to do. You can't, to my knowledge, have any sort of "invitational" event, unless you only want to invite one sex, rating, age group, ect and still have it sanctioned. Qualifiing events and certain other events (state games for example) can be restricted on the basis of your divisions/section, but that is about it and even state games are a little iffy strictly speaking from a strict legal standpoint, but the USFA says it is okay (and accepts results/ratings changes) so it is.

As to keeping this one coach out, there you are stretching a bit. If he registers as a fencer there is nothing that you can do and still have an "open" tourney. However your salle is still a place of business and you have the right to refuse "service" to someone as long as it is not on the basis of a protected catagory like race/religion/etc. So yes, if he is just a joe off the street you would not have to let him in.

If he is a registered coaching member there with his fencers and decides to make a stink about it you could maybe run into problems. On that last one I would call the national office or maybe contact the Secretary or Chair in your division for an answer. It has never come up for us. Sure there are coaches we may keep an eye on or just plain don't like having around at tourneys because they are annoying/distracting/whatever, but all things being equal we all seem to get along pretty well down here. Hope that was some help and good luck with the tourney. If you do contact the national office would you mind letting me know what you find out? Never hurts to know.

With keeping the size low, you can require pre-registration on ask Fred and simply not accept people at the door. Also put it out there that the venue is small and annouce what you feel is a good capacity. Lets say for example you can have 50 fencers per weapon. Post that in the comments section of the Fred and once it hits that number people will probably respect that. Who want to come to a tourney they know if going to be overcrowded and contribute to a long, misrable day. I agree with HPfencing that it will probably self regulate if you make the situation clear.

[RITFencing]

Chuck,

With regards to that one individual... if you want ot be sneaky, why not invite his club and then not let him enter the competition until he pays what he owes?

Also, tell me RIT is invited. I'd be a very sad penguin to miss out on this.

[El Chucko]

Cville - yes, that was very helpful. Thanks.

Originally Posted by RITFencing

With regards to that one individual... if you want ot be sneaky, why not invite his club and then not let him enter the competition until he pays what he owes?

Yeah, we are considering that.

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Also, tell me RIT is invited. I'd be a very sad penguin to miss out on this.

But Sean, YOU are the unwelcome one! MwAAhahahahahahaha!

(Actually, the Red Tape Open was what finally pushed us to do this thing, so it would be in terribly bad taste not to invite you folks. In fact, we are trying hard to do it before the colleges let out so you guys will still be around... we simply COULDN'T have a tournament without you!)

[KD5MDK]

In my experience, at least, you don't "invite clubs". You merely announce the event, perhaps pass some fliers around at local tournaments, put it on FRED, and the Division calendar, and people come.

My other recommendations would be to hire at least one high quality referee (5 or better) if they can be found and invite at least one experienced Bout Committee member to assist your BC.

Capping the number of entries in each weapon shouldn't be a problem, I'd think. Just be careful you don't have too many no shows then.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

But Sean, YOU are the unwelcome one! MwAAhahahahahahaha!

Banning me from your tournament? That's probably a good idea; it'll raise the average maturity in the room by about 10 years. And that's going only by the number of **** jokes.

Originally Posted by El Chucko

(Actually, the Red Tape Open was what finally pushed us to do this thing, so it would be in terribly bad taste not to invite you folks. In fact, we are trying hard to do it before the colleges let out so you guys will still be around... we simply COULDN'T have a tournament without you!)

Awww shucks. I'm gonna tell the club about this, they'll be thrilled. If you guys need any help at all with this, let us know, ok?

EDIT: Man, I can't believe they censored out a four letter word meaning "Gaseous emmision from one's posterior."

[SMSEpee]

To start out small, but still have a nice tournament, choose one weapon per weekend.

Say, foil-then have all the foil events you can handle. If you have a lot of youth fencers, have some youth events, women's, vets, etc.

Of course, if the individual you wish to not invite fences foil, then start with epee or saber.

[El Chucko]

So, simply: the USFA will not sanction invitational tournaments. Correct?

[KD5MDK]

I believe they are covered in terms of insurance, but not for ratings increases.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

So, simply: the USFA will not sanction invitational tournaments. Correct?

No, I think they'll sanction invitationals. All that matters, to my knowledge, is that enough people of whatever ratings show up and place high enough.

[RITFencing]

Honestly, unless you're giving out Bs or As, no one in the USFA office really cares.

[darius]

No, I think they'll sanction invitationals.

I can't find the requisite Ops Manual since the USFA site is down, but I'm pretty sure that there's some language specifying that classifications can only be given in certain circumstances, and that events need to either be open or restricted by age/classification/etc.

Otherwise, what's to stop us from gathering a few highly-rated fencers and have a "Generate Craploads of Ratings For Just Our Teammates Open" on a Friday night? As long as As and Bs make the top 8...

darius

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by darius

I can't find the requisite Ops Manual since the USFA site is down, but I'm pretty sure that there's some language specifying that classifications can only be given in certain circumstances, and that events need to either be open or restricted by age/classification/etc.

Otherwise, what's to stop us from gathering a few highly-rated fencers and have a "Generate Craploads of Ratings For Just Our Teammates Open" on a Friday night? As long as As and Bs make the top 8...

darius

Actually, they do that on wednesdays, that way nobody else goes.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by darius

Otherwise, what's to stop us from gathering a few highly-rated fencers and have a "Generate Craploads of Ratings For Just Our Teammates Open" on a Friday night? As long as As and Bs make the top 8...

And there's the why of it all... as I recall, you are correct, you cannot have an 'invitational' event and give out ratings, unless you restrict purely by a recognized USFA category (Div II, maybe... Women's Foil, of course... Y12, yes... you get the idea). This is why no collegiate event (meaning either NCAA of collegiate club event) can actually award fencers with a rating, because clearly collegiate fencer is not a USFA category.

Two relevant passages from:

Originally Posted by USFA OPS MANUAL, 2000 Revision, Section 6

(5) The classification of a fencer in one weapon has no effect upon his or her classification in another weapon and is not affected by his or her winning or competing in individual three-weapon competitions, invitational meets, intercollegiate competitions, or unofficial club and inter-club competitions.

(6) Classifications can be earned only in regularly scheduled competitions run by the USFA, its sections, or its divisions. Classifications cannot be awarded if adequate notice of the competition has not been given to the members of the organizing body via such means as a published schedule, newsletter, or notices sent to all USFA clubs within the division or section. Classifications can be earned in competitions sanctioned by a body of the USFA but not run by that body (e.g., State Games) only after the sanctioning body has determined that the competition has been run in such a manner as to justify the awarding of classifications.

The big one for you guys is the second one, if 'adequate notice of the competition has not been given to the members of the organizing body' (either the members of the division or section, at least), then at least in theory the USFA won't give any ratings. I somehow doubt that'd actually be the way it worked, but... you never know, I guess.

HTH

[KD5MDK]

The organizing body will be the Division. They're the basic representative of the USFA at the tournament level. In addition, you need to work with them to get the tournament on the calendar, because that's one of the basic steps in getting sanctioned.

[darius]

The big one for you guys is the second one, if 'adequate notice of the competition has not been given to the members of the organizing body' (either the members of the division or section, at least), then at least in theory the USFA won't give any ratings. I somehow doubt that'd actually be the way it worked, but... you never know, I guess.

The way that's verified is on the rating change sheet, so the Div. officer's signature on the change sheet basically implies that all the appropriate rules have been followed.

How many fencing camps have competitions at the end of their camp that are unannounced and not considered open, and then award ratings? A bunch, I'd wager. (Still, the easy solution to that is to say, "Sure, it's open -- entry fee is $450.")

darius

[keropie]

Originally Posted by darius

The way that's verified is on the rating change sheet, so the Div. officer's signature on the change sheet basically implies that all the appropriate rules have been followed.

How many fencing camps have competitions at the end of their camp that are unannounced and not considered open, and then award ratings? A bunch, I'd wager. (Still, the easy solution to that is to say, "Sure, it's open -- entry fee is $450.")

darius

I'm not award of any camps that give ratings for their end of camp tournaments, and I've worked at a few. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I'm certainly not aware of it.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by USFA Ops Manual

(12) Competitions may be restricted to fencers under or over a certain age, to Unclassified fencers or novices (relatively inexperienced fencers), or to other categories of fencers provided that, if some fencers are barred from such competitions, an appropriate description of the basis of eligibility of contestants must be announced in the schedule. Such competitions may not be rated unless such restriction is based solely upon fencers’ classifications or division or section membership.

(13) Academic competitions (as described in Chapter II:Section 3:H above) may not be rated.

Originally Posted by USFA Ops Manual (Chap II: Section 3:H)

H. Academic
Academic contests, where the number of touches scored is not the sole criterion for victory in a bout, are permitted, provided adequate notice of the exact character of the competition is included in the schedule.

Note that the first citation above is currently outdated (and has been for quite some time -- that whole "in progress" bit at the beginning of the manual is more a statement that it isn't finished rather than that it is progressing). Age limitated competitions above the cadet level can award classifications, as well as at the cadet level and below as long as those competitions achieve at least a C1-level standard.

-B

[Tomas N]

Chuck,

It seems to me that there's little chance that you'd be swamped with fencers. But if you're worried, one way to restrict the number of entries would be to make it an E, D or C and under event. Another is to be careful with the number of individual events that you schedule for each day. A final way to help plan is to have a preregistration requirement. Are there really that many fencers in the Nickel City with a USFA membership who would want to attend?

Tomas