what is 'abnormal'

[SMSEpee]

Can someone define an "abnormal fencing action" for me?

I've been perusing the rule book and wonder what consitutes "abnormal". It's a red/then black card offence.

Is it more common in epee, foil or sabre?

TIA-sms

[FencingKitten]

It's totally up to the referee, and it's there to cover things that make you go cross-eyed upon seeing them.

For reference for epee and foil fencers, this does not include a flunge

It really is one of the referee outs - if there is something done that somehow miraculously makes a light go on, but really isn't fair, isn't in the spirit of the sport, anything like that, the ref can discount it.

Unless I'm wrong, and someone will say so, but I don't think I am.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by SMSEpee

Can someone define an "abnormal fencing action" for me?

I've been perusing the rule book and wonder what consitutes "abnormal". It's a red/then black card offence.

Is it more common in epee, foil or sabre?

TIA-sms

It is most decidedly not a Group 3 offense. If you look in the 9/05 rulebook (the most recent one) it's in the Group 1 section, right between unjustified appeal and touch scored while falling or with brutality.

I can't define it. I'll tell you when I see it.

[OROD]

I was at a competition just yesterday here in the bay area, and the director somehow had it in his mind that lowering your body was an "abnormal fencing position" and was carding for it. Mind you, I'm not even talking about bending over, bringing your chin to your chest, exposing back... nothing, just bending your legs and lowering your body.

Amazing!


.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by OROD

I was at a competition just yesterday here in the bay area, and the director somehow had it in his mind that lowering your body was an "abnormal fencing position" and was carding for it. Mind you, I'm not even talking about bending over, bringing your chin to your chest, exposing back... nothing, just bending your legs and lowering your body.

Amazing!


.

"Sir....show me the rule, please."

[pgepps]

I assume that, with the revision of the rules in epee that makes off-hand or knee contact with the ground not "falling," the Italian lunge would not be considered "while falling"--would it be considered an abnormal action?

(I'm thinking of the lunge where, beyond a normal lunge, one puts the off-hand down to continue forward, the whole body becoming nearly prone, front leg dropping to knee to accomodate the action.)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by pgepps

I assume that, with the revision of the rules in epee that makes off-hand or knee contact with the ground not "falling," the Italian lunge would not be considered "while falling"--would it be considered an abnormal action?

(I'm thinking of the lunge where, beyond a normal lunge, one puts the off-hand down to continue forward, the whole body becoming nearly prone, front leg dropping to knee to accomodate the action.)

If you're thinking a passata soto, that's legal AFAIK....dropping into a squat ti displace target and using the off hand to steady yourself is legal....using your off ahdn to STOP yourself from completing a fall is not.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

"Sir....show me the rule, please."

First, the call went against my opponent, so I wasnt about to argue it. The director made plenty of mistakes against me that day, so I just chucked it up to balancing the odds. Second, you cant really stand there and ask him to show you the rules... best you can do is appeal to the BC, and in that case you'd lose. Third, what the heck you gonna do... he thinks squatting to avoid a touch is abnormal... whatever!


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[SMSEpee]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

It is most decidedly not a Group 3 offense. If you look in the 9/05 rulebook (the most recent one) it's in the Group 1 section, right between unjustified appeal and touch scored while falling or with brutality.

I can't define it. I'll tell you when I see it.

Oh yes, sorry. I was trying to brush up on offences last night and got it mixed up between screens. I'm toying with the idea of taking the director's exam.

And I'm still somewhat mystified. I have a friend that directs, I'll ask him.

I've just seen some fencers' bodies going up and down like they were drunk and on a merry-go-round as they progressed down the strip, weaving side to side at the same time. This is in epee, where I just assume anything goes-and it was attributed to the fencer's "style".

Then there's the "Little Lord Fauntleroy" stance after the "fence" command is given, where the fencer rises up to a full stand, off hand on hip, weapon out to the side as if to strike a pose and wait for the unworthy opponent to show up at his end of the strip.

And there's a guy I know that beats from the shoulder, a la a baseball swing.

I'd think the last one could be called as abnormal or even brutal, the first slightly abnormal-and the middle one just arrogance.

It seems to be a fine line....any thoughts?

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
Quote:
Originally Posted by OROD
I was at a competition just yesterday here in the bay area, and the director somehow had it in his mind that lowering your body was an "abnormal fencing position" and was carding for it. Mind you, I'm not even talking about bending over, bringing your chin to your chest, exposing back... nothing, just bending your legs and lowering your body.

Amazing!



"Sir....show me the rule, please."

Well, depending on what competition you're competing at.
But I totally agree with Purple Fencer.
IF you think that what the referee says against you is wrong, you may very well ask and start an arguement. C'est le ton qui fait la musique.
I wouldn't just stand there and swallow everything I'm being told if I were at an important competition for me.

[larkmaj]

Annuling the touch?

I think this thread should answer your question. It mainly involves falling after the touch is scored but some of the explanations should help.

[Mr Epee]

Again with this "sir... show me the rule" nonsense?

What, are you people in 3rd grade?

That is not how you initiate a valid protest... and if you do initiate a protest, then you will not win. It is a matter of referee opinion, not an issue of rule. At best, you can have the referee observed, and then "talked to" after the bout.
---------------

Now, back on subject.

A classic case of abnormal fencing action is covering target with the weapon arm, in foil.

Technically it isn't covering target, but if a fencer places their elbow against their hip, lays the forearm across their chest, and angles their wrist back, so that the weapon is pointed in the right direction, then this is clearly an attempt to fence in an "abnormal" fashion to gain an unfair advantage.

It should be penalized, as such, by the referee.

[notalent]

Greetings,
Abnormal fencing is like obscenity,
I can not define it, but I will know it when I see it. It will also be different for every who does see "it"

[jBirch]

I've never seen fencers performing the splits carded for abnormal fencing. Any idea why not?

James.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If somebody does something, and you say "Huh?? What the heck is he doing???" then its probably abnormal movement.

[FencingKitten]

Originally Posted by jBirch

I've never seen fencers performing the splits carded for abnormal fencing. Any idea why not?

James.

I've never seen a fencer do the splits on strip. Any idea why not?

[jBirch]

"Sabre chicks are cutting edge".

The one I saw was a foilist.

James.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Again with this "sir... show me the rule" nonsense?

What, are you people in 3rd grade?

That is not how you initiate a valid protest... and if you do initiate a protest, then you will not win. It is a matter of referee opinion, not an issue of rule. At best, you can have the referee observed, and then "talked to" after the bout.

Gee, then what's that business in the rule book about appeals? Just irrelevant boilerplate?

The call mentioned IS about a rule, not the ref's capitulation of an action. Therefore it must not depart from what the rules say. If displacement of the body is specifically mentioned as valid and legal, there is no leeway for "referee opinion" to contradict it. Sitting into a lower guard position is far less "abnormal" than a passata sotto, which again is specifically singled out as a permitted action.

And if a BC, in contravention of a rule, sides with a ref in contravention of a rule merely because he is "one of us", as you imply, there is an appeal process for that, too.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

.......If displacement of the body is specifically mentioned as valid and legal, there is no leeway for "referee opinion" to contradict it............

but displacement can result in substitution - you cannot appeal against a substitution penalty by stating that you where displacing target. Generally abnormal gets subsumed under substitution, parrying with something other than the weapon or falling while making the hit.

A passata sotto may be perfectly legal, but it can still be penalised as illegal if it is coupled with an elegant head parry.

The same applies to 'abnormal' - plenty of weird and wonderful actions are not abnormal since they have no effect on your opponents ability to score on your valid target - which is why doing the splits on piste would probably not count as abnormal.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Again with this "sir... show me the rule" nonsense?

What, are you people in 3rd grade?

That is not how you initiate a valid protest... and if you do initiate a protest, then you will not win. It is a matter of referee opinion, not an issue of rule. At best, you can have the referee observed, and then "talked to" after the bout.

What about tape on the wires inside an epee guard....where's THAT rule?? (I know the answer, and if I asked a ref to show me that rule if I had a weapon with CLEAR tape over the wires, he'd never find such rule)