saber whipover

[N00bArmorer]

I need to share this interesting tidbit gleaned from the UCI tournament this last Saturday. I saw an entire saber team with tape around the edges of their sabers. I went up and tried to explain to them that the tape would be a disadvantage for them. Upon telling them that the tape was a bad idea, I was told, by the guy how appeared to be the team captain, that "Whipover timing is in my imagination and the tape just prevented the guards from shorting out the guard to the lame". I left them and didn't try to argue for two reasons. One, I'm the armorer for an opposing team. If they didn't want to listen me when I was trying to event the field, that was their problem. Two, the comment about whipover timing being in my imagination kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I'm sure every armorer has faced fencers who don't believe it when they get good advice from armorer. Isn't it fustrating?

[mrbiggs]

I'm remembering a time a few years ago when a teammate had a mysterious intermittent off-target problem that I thought was in the bodycord. An opponent at the competition came over and tightened the clip, and proclaimed that he had fixed the problem, despite my protests that the clip has nothing to do with the circuit.

Of course, the damn bodycord backed him up by working until he left the strip.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by N00bArmorer

I need to share this interesting tidbit gleaned from the UCI tournament this last Saturday. I saw an entire saber team with tape around the edges of their sabers.

You mean the edges of their guards, and not the blade edges, right?

In all candour, I have some doubts about the whipover lockout feature of scoring boxes, myself. I have seen a lot of more-than-adequate parries fail to stop the light from going off on.

Years ago, back when the manchette still covered the back of the hand, I split long pieces of wire insulation lengthwise and glued them over the edges of my sabre guards for just that reason...

[N00bArmorer]

I've seen whipover timing in action before. Boxes techically should have the whipover timing in place. It comes into play alot for me when people aim for the guard. I have many times when I feel the opponents blade hit my arm with the simultaneous clang of the guard and the light does not go off. I've also experienced the light going off when they hit my arm and thud off of the insulator on the bottom portion of my guard. Tape on the edge made sense when the back of the had was target, but now, you would have to be hold your blade in pretty funny ways to get contact with your arm behind the wrist bone.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by N00bArmorer

I've seen whipover timing in action before. Boxes techically should have the whipover timing in place. It comes into play alot for me when people aim for the guard. I have many times when I feel the opponents blade hit my arm with the simultaneous clang of the guard and the light does not go off. I've also experienced the light going off when they hit my arm and thud off of the insulator on the bottom portion of my guard. Tape on the edge made sense when the back of the had was target, but now, you would have to be hold your blade in pretty funny ways to get contact with your arm behind the wrist bone.

I'm not sure how useful the rules regarding taping the pommels in foil and sabre are anymore because with all the new boxes not doing so will only hurt the offending fencer so they should have a right to not do it.

[KD5MDK]

Taping the pommel of a sabre is important in that it's so easy to make contact between the pommel and the cuff that it's practically not a bout when the blade is target area. I mean, an epee that doesn't register touches consistantly is still non-conforming, why shouldn't a sabre?

I think the whipover timing is probably too short (as it has to be) to catch a great many whipovers which still arrive, and in those cases it's up to the referee to pay attention to hits on the guard, blade etc.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

I'm not sure how useful the rules regarding taping the pommels in foil and sabre are anymore because with all the new boxes not doing so will only hurt the offending fencer so they should have a right to not do it.

Different circuits...touching an uninsulated pommel to the lame in foil has nothing to do with the box looking for a break i nteh circuit, which is how the lights are tripped.

In sabre, tho, it's different. Remember that all you have to do in sabre is simply make physical contact with the lame...not depress a tip.

If you've got a bare pommel (or the guard) in contact with any portion of your lame when you take a parry, the light will fire.

[robert]

In sabre if you connect the guard or an un-insulated pommel to the lame or manchette a hit to the blade is going to trigger the box. If you coach kids or beginners they have trouble keeping the isolation between the weapon and lame so I regularly tape the edges of the sabre guards. Too often I’ve seen a kid come off the piste in tears because she/he took hits that never landed on his jacket (often several sizes too big anyways) and the president wasn’t bright enough to figure it out.

[KD5MDK]

I don't see much youth fencing, but I very rarely see touches scored on the blade via the guard. I saw a pommel that came untaped cause this problem, but in general the fencers I see at least keep the guard off. Then again, I only know one or two people who use a hungarian style on guard (knucklebow to the side).

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Different circuits...touching an uninsulated pommel to the lame in foil has nothing to do with the box looking for a break i nteh circuit, which is how the lights are tripped.

In sabre, tho, it's different. Remember that all you have to do in sabre is simply make physical contact with the lame...not depress a tip.

If you've got a bare pommel (or the guard) in contact with any portion of your lame when you take a parry, the light will fire.

My point is technically it is illegal and the offender is penalized. I find this unnecessary since he is already being penalized just from the fact that those parts are exposed. It was started as a penalty because you could use it to cheat but that is no longer the case.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

My point is technically it is illegal and the offender is penalized. I find this unnecessary since he is already being penalized just from the fact that those parts are exposed. It was started as a penalty because you could use it to cheat but that is no longer the case.

Ahhh....ok. I see the cheating angle for foil, but the same method would not work to cheat in sabre...thus the confusion.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think the whipover timing is probably too short (as it has to be) to catch a great many whipovers which still arrive, and in those cases it's up to the referee to pay attention to hits on the guard, blade etc.

I have never seen a whipover called by a referee.

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I don't see much youth fencing, but I very rarely see touches scored on the blade via the guard. I saw a pommel that came untaped cause this problem, but in general the fencers I see at least keep the guard off. Then again, I only know one or two people who use a hungarian style on guard (knucklebow to the side).

I use a Hungarian en guarde, but I don't have a problem with my guard touching my lame. The reason is because your wrist is not whatturns the guard out, it is your fingers. Out of curiosity, if you don't use a Hungarian en guarde, aren't you incredibly susceptible to hits on the out side of the wrist?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by robert

In sabre if you connect the guard or an un-insulated pommel to the lame or manchette a hit to the blade is going to trigger the box. If you coach kids or beginners they have trouble keeping the isolation between the weapon and lame so I regularly tape the edges of the sabre guards. Too often I’ve seen a kid come off the piste in tears because she/he took hits that never landed on his jacket (often several sizes too big anyways) and the president wasn’t bright enough to figure it out.

the pommel is very close to the overglove, and is totally potentially a problem........

but if your bell guard is touching your lame, you're not getting touches for more reasons than just the face that your blade is now target, and perhaps the people THAT new to fencing ought not to be fencing in competition, since they're probably not very good at controling their blades in a safe way yet........


just playing devil's advocate, or something......

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I have never seen a whipover called by a referee.



I use a Hungarian en guarde, but I don't have a problem with my guard touching my lame. The reason is because your wrist is not whatturns the guard out, it is your fingers. Out of curiosity, if you don't use a Hungarian en guarde, aren't you incredibly susceptible to hits on the out side of the wrist?

Hmm. It's very difficult to have a whipover land and still riposte in time to turn your light on, but it can happen, and I've seen it called. (Attack is parried, riposte. Or, "Attack is on the guard, remise", if you don't make the riposte)

Attacks on outside wrist: I just parry 3.

but if your bell guard is touching your lame, you're not getting touches for more reasons than just the face that your blade is now target, and perhaps the people THAT new to fencing ought not to be fencing in competition, since they're probably not very good at controling their blades in a safe way yet.......

I imagine a lot of it is overenthusiastic parry-4s. Particularly is the rear arm is forward.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Hmm. It's very difficult to have a whipover land and still riposte in time to turn your light on, but it can happen, and I've seen it called. (Attack is parried, riposte. Or, "Attack is on the guard, remise", if you don't make the riposte)

Yes, precisely. The new timing has given refs an easy way out of making a tough call, though, and most appear to have accepted the proposition that if there are two lights it's parry-riposte and the remise is out of time, ie "whipover" ( which last of course is not an actual call ).

I get an occasional touch against me because my guard is drawn back against my lame. Few things suck like perfectly making your opponent's attack fall just short of your body, only to have it graze your arm because you forgot and left it too far out there. I tend to overcompensate by withdrawing it too far, and then if the opponent taps my blade---faugh. Damned either way.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Hmm. It's very difficult to have a whipover land and still riposte in time to turn your light on, but it can happen, and I've seen it called. (Attack is parried, riposte. Or, "Attack is on the guard, remise", if you don't make the riposte)

Attacks on outside wrist: I just parry 3.

Oh, I though you were talking about actually disregarding a touch by saying it was a whipover. Yeah, I completely agree with the way you described it.

If you have a Hungarian style en garde, you don't have to parry 3, because you are already in one. What is the benefit to having a straight guard, or should I say, what is the disadvantage to the Hungarian style?

[Peach]

I've called two-light whipover as a referee, and it's not that uncommon. I've called them with hot-shot national-level coaches on either end of the strip, and neither one of them argued it. It's usually pretty clear if you have the lights in your peripheral vision and you can hear the impact and see the angle of the blade as it hits the guard.

[rcmatthews]

Im not saying your wrong to call it, just that I have never seen it done.

[ForgottenKnight]

My club used to used to tape the gaurds to prevent the problem of the gaurd making contact with the lame. But we stopped since the timming was changed. From what I understand, if you tape the gaurd and it whipped over, it would set off the box as a touch. But if you don't tape the gaurd and it whipps over while still making contact with the gaurd, it will be grounded out and not set off the box as a touch. With the new timming being too fast for most to make a repost against a whipover, it's now more harmful than helpful to tape the sides of the gaurd.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Oh, I though you were talking about actually disregarding a touch by saying it was a whipover. Yeah, I completely agree with the way you described it.

If you have a Hungarian style en garde, you don't have to parry 3, because you are already in one. What is the benefit to having a straight guard, or should I say, what is the disadvantage to the Hungarian style?

The disadvantage, or perhaps difference is a better word, is that the Russian/offensive track style position (guard foward, not outward) does simplify offense at some level. No longer to you turn the blade to make a cut, because it's already turned. It also has a training advantage as virtually all cuts are made from the same position, so cuts are more consistent. The effective 'advantage' is that some officials will see the turn of the guard as a (possibly subconcious) preparation, and may be inclined to give the 'offensive track' fencer the benefit of the doubt.

Mind you, most of my (fairly little) saber training is in the Hungarian style as well. I tend to prefer the basic idea a bit more.

HTH (and isn't too far from anyone else's perceptions )