Rule Check #2: Fencing Early

[Army Fencer]

In a poorly organized tournament, the number 1 seed sees his next opponent, a free director, and a free strip. The bout will probably be called in the next 15-30 minutes, but the fencers want to move things along. The top seed wins the bout.

The results from that come back to the bout committee before the BC announces the bout.

What is the appropriate response?

[Frater_Frag]

In a poorly organized tournament, there is most propably no knowledge about the rules among the organizers, hence, anything goes...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Whatever the bout committee wants to do, honestly. Its their ball park.

[AndrewH]

If both fencers and the director agree to it? I don't see what the problem would be. I'd thank them.

[Epee Scherma]

Black card the directer, for running a bout not designated to start yet. The Bout committee could have been planning some other DE at that strip when they decided to hijack it.

[bigdawg2121]

I think that this works kind of like a bout fenced accidentally out of order in a pool. You cross off that bout and then go back to where you should have been and continue moving, if that means that the fencer has two bouts in a row or some such, c'est la vie.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

If it's a well run tournament, then it's very likly that this wouldn't happen, and if it did, there would be something fishy about the bout being fenced. It would be more likly that the BC would be on top of what strips were being used, and that you doing it was getting in the way. it would be more likly that one would deserve and receive a card.

If one were at a very unorganized tournament, where directors and strips weren't being used and the BC didn't know what was going on where, and couldn't get bouts in and out effectively, it's more likly that a situation like this would be permissable........... although it's less likly you'd be able to find both a free ref and strip in such a circumstance.


All bets off at national tournaments.

[mrbiggs]

Running a tournament that badly, then penalizing a fencer for trying to move things along, sounds like a great way to ensure that no one comes to that tournament anymore.

At most, ask the fencer to check with the bout committee before organizing his own bouts.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

In a poorly organized tournament, the number 1 seed sees his next opponent, a free director, and a free strip. The bout will probably be called in the next 15-30 minutes, but the fencers want to move things along. The top seed wins the bout.

The results from that come back to the bout committee before the BC announces the bout.

What is the appropriate response?

I don't know that there's really an "appropriate" response in a situation this far from ideal.

If both fencers agreed to fence the bout, and there was a designated referee to take the bout, then I don't think that it's reasonable to refence the bout. It's similar to a situation where the referee grabs the wrong bout, and the bout is fenced out of order.

If I were on the bout committee, I would probably

1) Ask the referee only to take bouts handed out by the BC.

2) Ask the referee to remain near the BC table when he's available so that we know that we have someone available if we'd like to call another bout.

3) Ask the fencer (kindly) to let the BC allocate resources (directors; strips; etc.). Having people outside the BC doing that only adds to the confusion and is not likely to improve the operation of the event.

4) Tell the fencer (kindly) that we appreciate his intent. If he sees a free referee and a free strip, please tell the BC so that we can assign the next appropriate bout to that strip and referee.

[FencingKitten]

Originally Posted by tbryan

I don't know that there's really an "appropriate" response in a situation this far from ideal.

If both fencers agreed to fence the bout, and there was a designated referee to take the bout, then I don't think that it's reasonable to refence the bout. It's similar to a situation where the referee grabs the wrong bout, and the bout is fenced out of order.

If I were on the bout committee, I would probably

1) Ask the referee only to take bouts handed out by the BC.

2) Ask the referee to remain near the BC table when he's available so that we know that we have someone available if we'd like to call another bout.

3) Ask the fencer (kindly) to let the BC allocate resources (directors; strips; etc.). Having people outside the BC doing that only adds to the confusion and is not likely to improve the operation of the event.

4) Tell the fencer (kindly) that we appreciate his intent. If he sees a free referee and a free strip, please tell the BC so that we can assign the next appropriate bout to that strip and referee.

This looks about right to me. My original noticing, though, was directed to the first sentence or so of the OP.

"In a poorly organized tournament... what does the bout committee do?"

I have never been to a badly organized tournament with a proper bout committee, i.e. one that knows the rules about bouts being fenced in order, announcing bouts, etc. Not sure about the national level, since I'm still very new to that BC arena.

Also, it will likely make a difference whether it is a pool bout or DE - DEs fenced out of order but in the correct table (i.e. not trying to fence the backside of a rep table without waiting for the reseed, or some such) really don't change much except the start time on the rest clock. Pool bouts fenced on a different strip with a different ref can significantly impact the order of the pool, possibly resulting in confusion and/or errors on the scoresheet.

My $.02.

[OROD]

This really doesnt seem like a huge problem... just note the results and carry on.

It would be a different situation if the losing fencer afterwards said that he wanted to refence the bout, claiming that he doesnt consider it a valid DE bout since it was not given to them by the BC.


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[telkanuru]

Poorly run tournaments? Those are things that happen in other divisions.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Poorly run tournaments? Those are things that happen in other divisions.

*insert Chinese flute melody*

In my journey across the land, I have seen many things, wonderous and terrible alike.

There once was a gathering of warriors in a meeting place of a river and mountains to the northwest. The Sun rose to an agreed upon place in the sky, and the warriors and their masters gathered. As the hours went by, and the Sun continued on its daily rituals, there was no sign of the day's affairs proceeding.

I awaited until the Sun had moved a fist and a half's width.

Curious as to the local customs of this land, I approached one among the Battle Council and inquired as to their great wisdom on this seeming tardiness of the day's events. All present seemed more at focus with their sharing of stories and debating idealogies than at commencing the contest of swordmenship, as one might have been led to believe was the very nature of this gathering. But it appeared that perhaps I was mistaken.

*Chinese flute here*

The Battle Council seemed slight perturbed and even curious that this humble wanderer before them seemed interested in hastening the pace of what is surely a lengthy affair as the tradition dictates. The Elders of the Council discussed this curious matter amongst themselves, and conferred the matter also with the warriors and masters. Oh, what strange notion it was this strange traveller brings with him.

*another short melody*

As the Sun retired and the Moon set afoot in her nightly journey, the contest continued its course. Adversary after another who appeared before me offered unique challeneges with their curious styles, as did the judges, whose wisdom I could not easily comprehend.

In the end I was victorious. This fact greatly infuriated certain Elders while it also provided an amusement to others.

Throughout the day and night, many approached me, wishing to fulfill their curiosity as to this strange Tome of Knowledge called, "The Rule Book," that this wanderer so endearing spoke of with warmth in his heart. Many were intrigued and many more were awed that the knowledge and wisdom of their martial pursuits could be codified and put into a book.

For many seasons I stayed in this meeting place of The River and The Mountains. For those who sought knowledge, it was offered. Those who sought combat, were honored as such. Those who sought solace and blissful ignorance, I could not offer much help.

*a gulp of whatever it is the wandering Kung-Fu masters drink out of their hollowed-out whatever bottles, followed by a lengthy flute melody.*

.
.
.

And that's the story of how I began my years in a certain backwards division. So yeah, not every division out there is like NE.

[Alexandria]

Mauler:
RITFencing sent me to your post... that sounds EXACTLY like the karate tournaments I routinely attend. It's unfortunate that the politics run amok in other circles too.

The way you wrote it made me laugh my *** off, though.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

Mauler:
RITFencing sent me to your post... that sounds EXACTLY like the karate tournaments I routinely attend. It's unfortunate that the politics run amok in other circles too.

The way you wrote it made me laugh my *** off, though.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to have this read by David Carradine.....

[KD5MDK]

Beautiful post, which is why you got rep for it.

[Fechter1]

Depends if this is a pool bout, or a DE (you didn't specify...)

Pool: Ignore the result, keep the pool in order. (I.e. they just got a practice bout in...)

DE: As most tournaments (even some of the poorly run ones) use DE boutsheets, require that official bouts use these. If they want to fence ahead, they have to get the boutsheet. If they fence without it, TL for them. Once the sheet comes up in the order, call them to strip, etc. Mind you, some BCs will be grateful for the initiative, some will treat it as an insult to their organizational skills...

I guess it doesn't matter what kind of bout it is after all. Unless it's official (i.e. in order in the pool, proper DE boutsheet), ignore it.

At least, that's my $.02, but then again I'm generally not on BCs for poorly run tournaments...

[KD5MDK]

Many tournaments send out officials in quadrents, octants etc with the initial bouts printed and a stack of blanks for the later bouts on the tableau, which the referees are expected to be intelligent enough to know how to fill in. Does this make a difference?

[Army Fencer]

Now for the rest of the story...

It was a DE bout, and I believe they had a bout sheet. The bout committee was the only limiting factor, not bouts nor refs. He probably should have asked/told the BC that he wanted to fence to keep things going (the last mixed epee tournament with ~40 fencers lasted 12 hours), but he didn't.

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.