Rule Check #2: Fencing Early

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by Jay Kominek

I'm genuinely curious, how much are these other, less shameful, tournaments charging, and how much are they paying the bout committee and directors?

I was actually kind of shocked at how little the refs were being paid, quite frankly. The previous club I helped run was a nonprofit, modest club, but we gave all directors a minimum of $75 per day, plus breakfast and lunch. Additionally, out-of-state directors received money for transportation.
We generally had eight to 10 directors (depending on estimated size of competition). This is for all tournaments. We didn't make much money, if at all (generally about $100 to $300 per tournament). We charged $25, but gave a $5 discount if people preregistered online prior to a certain deadline. Women could even fence the open events for free if there were less than 6 women in the women's events (to encourage female participation at tournaments). I think cost of venue was about $500 for about 10-12 hours. We would have about 7 to 8 strips. Events generally lasted a total of 6 hours. The goal was to have high-quality local competitions rather than using it as fundraising.

I would have to say that our tournament participants numbered about 75 to 120 fencers per tournament.

Self-directing NEVER happened. That was pretty much the case for all club-run touraments in Illinois. The tournaments were all well attended as a result.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Jay Kominek

I'm genuinely curious, how much are these other, less shameful, tournaments charging, and how much are they paying the bout committee and directors?

In the northeastern US, the refereeing fee tend to range in $100~$180 per day weekend USFA events. Plus free food, plus transportation and lodging if needed.

During fall-winter-spring seasons, there are also various High School leagues that hire for "afterschool meets" which typically last 1.5 hrs. They pay $75~$100 per meet, which involves 9~27 5-point bouts. Occasionally HS meets are combined into one weekend day, and in such cases the payment is often made in rounds (i.e. if you did 4 rounds worth, then you get paid $320, in one league).

Those who are tapped into collegiate refereeing typically expect $150~$400 for one day's work (including travel allowance). Free food and lodgings are also provided, of course. Typical weeknight collegiate meet lasts 2 hrs. If "multi-round" meet is scheduled, referees get paid accordingly, as if they were working multiple days.

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When I came across this thread, I did a little research and came upon the AskFred listing of the event in question. Then on the bottom of the page, I read the following:

"We are looking for referees! We pay the USFA standard $40 for the day, plus we throw in a free lunch."

I was appalled when I first read that, but I kept my mouth shut because that wasn't the main point of this thread anyways. Plus, you guys are in a totally different part of the country with your own distinct sub-culture of the sport.

But you should know that $40 is not a "standard" investment in referees by any means. Heck, these "experts of the sport" could be making more than that in an hour by giving lessons!

Perhaps only "market study" information you had at determining this "USFA standard" was what is published in the USFA Reimbursement form, which describes the payment structure for national level events. You might have missed that the referee's pay includes the "honorarium" (aka service fee) PLUS "per diem" (think of it as availability fee).

So even if you were a mid-range referee (4~5 rated) who is expected to have your own share of suckiness of divine proportions throughout the day, you're still collecting $65. And that's only because it is understood in the payment policy that you are a "developmental referee" in the eyes of the FOC's (hence the 4~5 rating), and that you are exchanging part of your effort for education.

As the referees continue to further their education and increase their competence, their payment is adjusted accordingly. When you become a solid, "honored to have you aboard," product of such educational path, you would be collecting $100+ per service day, plus $20 per travel day.

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Keep in mind that when referees sign up for national events, they are not going for the pay. Instead they're there for education and practice opportunities for their craft. Also keep in mind that USFA might have already invested $600~$1,000 PER REFEREE just to transport them to the host city and house them. The payment range hinted above for the national referees is set with this investment in mind.

Remember, that in USFA national events, referees are VOLUNTEERS as it is stated many times in the said document! One should never forget that while browsing through the compensation policy. Not unlike how Red Cross "pays" its deployed volunteers on "service days" and "travel days" for their volunteer efforts.

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If you are arranging "local" level event, and you are asking competent, knowledgeable, impartial officials to go out of their way to make themselves available to aid in your efforts, then perhaps the least your oganization can do for them is to avoid having them lose money in doing so. That is, unless you are specifically catering to customers (fencers) who are only travelling within a very small geographical area, and have no concern for the quality of their experience, which they so gladly paid for.

[KD5MDK]

Mauler -

The South Texas Division uses the following payment schedule for referees at tournaments hosted by the Division:
1 event: $15.00
Rated 10-7: $35.00 per day
Rated 6-5: $45.00 per day
Rated 4-1: $55.00 per day

I've seen higher pay rates (40-60-100, or 50-?-?), but $180 per day is well in excess of anything I've seen around here.

[scarlet_woman156k]

I know Northwestern University's big October event (Remenyik) they are paying their refs at least $100 per day and paying for their hotel.

Refs should definitely be getting presidential treatment as far as I'm concerned. They work their butts off. My old club back in Illinois did whatever was within our means to make them happy and comfortable....which makes the fencers happy (quality reffing), which in turn makes more and more fencers come to the events because they know it won't be a headache. Who wants to go to a subpar, poorly directed competition...or even self-direct? Especially if you're shelling out $20-$25? For a lot of people, especially kids/college students, that can be difficult to get the parents to spend/scrape up.

Get the idea? I hope people will feel more inclined to look at their anticipated revenue versus cost and be able to give a bit more to their refs that make the tournament even possible. My old club would actually have the refs asking us when they needed to show up! Isn't that nice than having to beg people to direct?

[mrbiggs]

Here's a table of rates for Connecticut:

http://candlewoodfencing.com/Schedul...cut_tourna.htm

[MikeHarm]

You should never have to beat someone twice in a row to win a DE match, thats totally unfair.

[wrdbrn]

Originally Posted by ForgottenKnight

The fencer does has a history of doing things without the bout committee's approval that disrupt the flow of the tournament. So whoever thought it was just to spite him overheard incorrectly. He was black carded later on for three black card offenses:
1. Telling his opponent he purposely threw the bout
2. Refusing to sign the score sheet
3. Flipping off the bout committee

I can elaborate more if needed, but I think that will clear things up.

Every sport has a disqualification for unsportmanlike conduct. Fencing should be no exception. If your read up on the subject, this includes coaches, athletes, spectators, and even parents. HOLD THE LINE ... but what do I know I am just a mom

[Gav]

Originally Posted by ForgottenKnight

I ran that tournament. The fencer wasn't black carded for jumping ahead, although he has a history of doing things his way if they're in line with the rules or not. We just had them refence the bout since the DE sheet for the bout hadn't been issued to the referees (no referee signature, no signatures of the fencers, or anything else needed). The bout committee I had there was annoyed at him for bypassing the bout committee, and he was told not to do it again. We held his bout until we were sure we were ready for it. The fencer does has a history of doing things without the bout committee's approval that disrupt the flow of the tournament. So whoever thought it was just to spite him overheard incorrectly. He was black carded later on for three black card offenses:
1. Telling his opponent he purposely threw the bout
2. Refusing to sign the score sheet
3. Flipping off the bout committee

I can elaborate more if needed, but I think that will clear things up.

If you believe he committed a "black card" offence why wasn't it handed out immediately and he escorted from the premises? Why wait for "3" offences? If he is being disruptive this should be done sooner rather than later. Black carding someone is a serious thing (in the UK - even if the penalties don't always match the offence) and shouldn't be done lightly, but if he is disrupting the tournament for everyone else then you probably have good grounds.

Be decisive - one of my pet hates with tournament organisers is when they refuse to make a decision.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by ForgottenKnight

See above. He did not have the bout sheet. Thus it was unofficial.The BC doesn't tolerate being bypassed as it disrupts the flow of the tournament. He was warned that if he bypassed the bout committee again, it would result in a black card.

Does it really matter whether he has the bout sheet to hand or if he records it on a bit of scrap paper and then transfers it to the sheet? It seems to me that if the BC was busy with other matters, they were done a favor by having one of their bouts taken care of.

As far as disrupting the flow of the tournament... if doing this made the thing end a bit quicker then I would say the flow of the tournament was actually improved.

Finally, what offence would he have been black carded for? I don't believe that "bypassing the bout committee" is a group 4 offence, but I'll check into that.

From your description, this fencer's behavior during the rest of the day sounds reprehensible. However, that doesn't change what happened during (or more precisely, after) that bout. I think that it might be good if the BC running things that day was a little more easy going with respect to these things; it creates a more open atmosphere and it gets the event done more quickly.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Does it really matter whether he has the bout sheet to hand or if he records it on a bit of scrap paper and then transfers it to the sheet? It seems to me that if the BC was busy with other matters, they were done a favor by having one of their bouts taken care of.

As far as disrupting the flow of the tournament... if doing this made the thing end a bit quicker then I would say the flow of the tournament was actually improved.

This is a potential over-simplification. I have seen this done at tournaments where it has caused severe disruption. The DT (you call it BC ...?) wants to assign a ref to poule/DE Fight but cannot because that ref has offered to help out with a another fight. So they assign another, and then another and then another down the line of fights until there are no refs left. This leads to a delay as they shuffle their expectations around, chase down other refs who though they were supposed to be on a break and so on. This has all sorts of knock ons from delayed starts to potentially long fights/poules to confusion about who is where and what they are doing. It's hard to keep organise thigns when your personnel are 'missing'.

From your description, this fencer's behavior during the rest of the day sounds reprehensible. However, that doesn't change what happened during (or more precisely, after) that bout. I think that it might be good if the BC running things that day was a little more easy going with respect to these things; it creates a more open atmosphere and it gets the event done more quickly.

Running things in an 'open' atmosphere leads to delays - again that is from experience. How can you keep control of your refs, assure timeliness, assign pistes if everything around you is out of control. When this has been allowed to happen I've seen fights over piste allocation, fights over refs, some sections of a draw sitting around doing F- all, Fencers not knowing exactly where they are supposed to be etc etc.

[hpfencing]

Black Card the bout committee for running a loosly ran event... Let the top seed run the tournament......

LOL only joking but the bout committee should NOT be un-orgainized, the referee should not referee things out of ordered or that are not assigned to them and the toop seed sould not be orginizing the event....

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Gav

This is a potential over-simplification. I have seen this done at tournaments where it has caused severe disruption. The DT (you call it BC ...?) wants to assign a ref to poule/DE Fight but cannot because that ref has offered to help out with a another fight. So they assign another, and then another and then another down the line of fights until there are no refs left. This leads to a delay as they shuffle their expectations around, chase down other refs who though they were supposed to be on a break and so on. This has all sorts of knock ons from delayed starts to potentially long fights/poules to confusion about who is where and what they are doing. It's hard to keep organise thigns when your personnel are 'missing'.

Running things in an 'open' atmosphere leads to delays - again that is from experience. How can you keep control of your refs, assure timeliness, assign pistes if everything around you is out of control. When this has been allowed to happen I've seen fights over piste allocation, fights over refs, some sections of a draw sitting around doing F- all, Fencers not knowing exactly where they are supposed to be etc etc.

You're right, it is a potential over simplification, but I'm working on the information provided in the thread. If anything I inferred is wrong or if any new info comes to light that disproves me, I'll gladly recant it. You're also right that, in certain circumstances, problems can arise from such behavior.

However, such does not seem to be the case here. Generally, if a tournament has experienced, competent refs and fencers, then the BC won't need to worry as much about controlling everything, because they can leave it in the hands of said refs and fencers. Delegation is a very important part of leadership, and it sounds like the BC was trying to micromanage a bit too much of the event (which can lead to 8.5 or 12 hour long local tournaments) as opposed to letting people handle their own problems. Ideally, such a situation would arise in a tournament because if a strip, a ref and both fencers were handy, the bout would be assigned ASAP. To wait on a bout because the proper score sheet wasn't ready yet seems a bit silly when a scrap of paper would do, and as far as making them refence... that's wasting even more time.

I'm going to paraphrase Bill Oliver here; I went to a referee seminar he gave back in June and one thing he said seems very relevant: The job of referees, BC members and other officials is to enable people to fence. They are there to let the athletes do their thing, not stand in the way of it, which is not, from the descriptions given, what happened here.