Rule Check #2: Fencing Early

[tallntender]

So they require the top seed to fence his opponent again. Disgusted, he fences entirely out of his normal game, loses, flips off the BC, and receives a black card . . . .

The top seed's (decidedly weaker but quirky) opponent, advancing after initially losing the "ignored DE," goes on to defeat Army Fencer!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.

I bet if the bout committee had concentrated less on themselves and more on the open strips and directors, and the bouts waiting to be fenced, they wouldn't have had a problem in the first place...

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

He probably should have asked/told the BC that he wanted to fence to keep things going (the last mixed epee tournament with ~40 fencers lasted 12 hours), but he didn't.

First time I earned a C in the backwards division that I speak of, I fenced a total of 8 bouts across the span of 8 hours. That's 15 fencers total.... in Sabre!?! Discovered much later that the entire event was mute because it couldn't have been a USFA tournament although it was advertised as such.

Should've raised warning flags when 1) no USFA membership was being checked, 2) a handful of fencers (ok, more than a "handful") were competing in jeans and even shorts (including Foil and Epee!!!), 3) there was no "Bout Committee" running this whole thing, 4) everything was "self-directed", 5) some pools were being fenced electric while other pools in the same event were being fenced dry......

I took the whole experience as a lesson, and I "re-earned" my rating shortly afterward at a real USFA event.

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.

A quick link to your LJ, and a short research gave me more details on the event that you speak of. It's a great thing that you are willing to participate in local events. But take it for what it's worth. No more, no less. ANY bouting opportunity is a good thing. But serious consideration must be given as to whether the investment of your training time could be better made.

You are a World Class Athlete. You are out there representing our country, and our country's military service, although this notion can easily be lost in a civilian, individual sports USFA community. If your attendance in a "local" event has a direct beneficial impact on your training, then by all means you should seek out such opportunities. But the motivation should not be that of "giving back to the community" at this level of play.

In contrast.... Here's something to think about. Not necessarily fencing-specific, but applicable in broad sports world.... You might one day come across an extremely unfair conditions that would unsettle even the toughest mental preparation of athletes.

Imagine flying into a random international event where just about the entire country seems bent against your success. Your luggage is conveniently lost (let's say intentionally so), every cab driver seems to hate the "Team USA" (or such) logo on your jacket. The hotel staff has never heard of your team's reservation and they are adamant that you must leave the premises. The local children chase your team and throw feces at you. Local police/militia/whatnot find amusement in making your visit "momorable."

On the day of the event, your team miraculously makes it to the venue. There, it becomes clear that the judges are all inclined against your success and their hostility is fully supported by the Directoire Techinque and the event organizers alike. Just about every spectator seems to revel in booing you and your teammates at every chance they get, short of throwing dangerous objects your way. Oh, heck. Let's say that they are in fact throwing dangerous objects your way and you have to fence you opponent as well as save yourself from mortal danger at the same time!



Can you still find your "mental center" under such conditions? If this experience has contributed to your mental training, then perhaps you can look back on this in the future and thank the clueless who arranged a little bump in your path to greatness....

[Li'l Bebe]

competitions take WAY too long anyway. If this were a local competition, that'd be great. If it were a national tournament, I would be slightly suprised, but hey, it didn't hurt anyone did it?

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Now for the rest of the story...

It was a DE bout, and I believe they had a bout sheet. The bout committee was the only limiting factor, not bouts nor refs. He probably should have asked/told the BC that he wanted to fence to keep things going (the last mixed epee tournament with ~40 fencers lasted 12 hours), but he didn't.

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.

Ok, if the BC decision was based on the personal feelings of the BC members towards this guy, then there's a problem there that might have to be brought up before the division/section...

As for the possible black card: for what? All he did was fence a warmup bout with the help of an unoccupied referee.

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by Mauler

Oh, what I wouldn't give to have this read by David Carradine.....

er... why?

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

er... why?

The above story was written in style consistent with his performance in Kill Bill. His recounts on the Tale of Pai Mei, as told by a camp fire accompanied by Chinese flute.

"Pai Mei, in his infinite graciousness, offerd the monk an imperceptible nod."
"The gesture, was not returned."

*flute*

Ring any bell?

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Now for the rest of the story...

It was a DE bout, and I believe they had a bout sheet. The bout committee was the only limiting factor, not bouts nor refs. He probably should have asked/told the BC that he wanted to fence to keep things going (the last mixed epee tournament with ~40 fencers lasted 12 hours), but he didn't.

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.

I think that's truly in poor taste on the part of the people who decided to make those fencers re-fence that bout. I've never heard of anything like that before, and just seems completely petty. Why punish the fencers...isn't the ref supposed to have some accountability in this situation? Did the fencers drag him at swordpoint or something to the strip? Really lame.

I do know who you're talking about, BTW. I personally find his uncensored self refreshing and downright hilarious.

[Elemental]

Originally Posted by Mauler

Discovered much later that the entire event was mute...

Wasn't the fact that nobody was speaking tip you off

(sorry, couldn't resist )

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

Why punish the fencers...isn't the ref supposed to have some accountability in this situation? Did the fencers drag him at swordpoint or something to the strip?

Well, obviously.

[ForgottenKnight]

I ran that tournament. The fencer wasn't black carded for jumping ahead, although he has a history of doing things his way if they're in line with the rules or not. We just had them refence the bout since the DE sheet for the bout hadn't been issued to the referees (no referee signature, no signatures of the fencers, or anything else needed). The bout committee I had there was annoyed at him for bypassing the bout committee, and he was told not to do it again. We held his bout until we were sure we were ready for it. The fencer does has a history of doing things without the bout committee's approval that disrupt the flow of the tournament. So whoever thought it was just to spite him overheard incorrectly. He was black carded later on for three black card offenses:
1. Telling his opponent he purposely threw the bout
2. Refusing to sign the score sheet
3. Flipping off the bout committee

I can elaborate more if needed, but I think that will clear things up.

[ForgottenKnight]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Running a tournament that badly, then penalizing a fencer for trying to move things along, sounds like a great way to ensure that no one comes to that tournament anymore.

At most, ask the fencer to check with the bout committee before organizing his own bouts.

It wasn't run badly. We took 8.5 hours to do a tournament with more people than the previous which had taken 12 hours. The fencer in question went up to the bout committee table and looked at who he would fence next. At the time the bout committee was busy entering results from other DEs into Fencing Time and moving on with the tournament. He then found the first referee to become available. The referee had finished the DEs he had been assigned and the bout committee had another set of bouts that needed fenced first. The referee took the fencer's bout when he shouldn't have. The fencer then came up to the bout committee, shuffled through the DE slips that had not yet gone out until he found his, wrote down the score, and tried to get the bout committee to enter in as if they had issued it. He had disrupted the tournament more than he had helped.

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Now for the rest of the story...

It was a DE bout, and I believe they had a bout sheet. The bout committee was the only limiting factor, not bouts nor refs. He probably should have asked/told the BC that he wanted to fence to keep things going (the last mixed epee tournament with ~40 fencers lasted 12 hours), but he didn't.

The BC felt undermined by this fencer's actions. Because they see him as a prick, they decided to have him refence the bout to spite him (overheard), though they bounced around the idea of black carding him.

See above. He did not have the bout sheet. Thus it was unofficial.
The BC doesn't tolerate being bypassed as it disrupts the flow of the tournament. He was warned that if he bypassed the bout committee again, it would result in a black card. But he was not carded at the time. He was later on black carded for offenses that are automatic black cards at any tournament.

[Army Fencer]

Thank you for the additional information. Please note that this is how the majority of the competitors viewed the turn of events.

To clarify my position, I posted this thread because this issue (and the other one that I posted) can and will happen in other competitions in other divisions.

[dukeofdoom]

Originally Posted by ForgottenKnight

It wasn't run badly. We took 8.5 hours to do a tournament. . . .

With 37 fencers!

Using Fencing Time!

'nuff said.

[Jay Kominek]

With 37 fencers!

Mixed epee wasn't the only event of the day.

[ForgottenKnight]

Originally Posted by dukeofdoom

With 37 fencers!

Using Fencing Time!

'nuff said.

Fencing Time was used. There was 121 fencers, 6 events, 9 strips.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by ForgottenKnight

It wasn't run badly. We took 8.5 hours to do a tournament with more people than the previous which had taken 12 hours.

Excuse me, but no... tournaments simply do not take this long.

This is very disrespectful to the participants.

Clearly, proper organization could have avoided this entire situation.

Shame. Shame. Shame.

[Army Fencer]

Really, this isn't the point of this thread, but:

Mixed epee closed at 12:00, and it was done at roughly 7:00. Seven hours is better than 12, but there's room for improvement.

Part of the problem is that they are trying to do too many competitions in one day, the other part is that they are sticking too closely to fencing time (eg. often the first seed does not fence first in a bracket).

[Jay Kominek]

Excuse me, but no... tournaments simply do not take this long.

I'm genuinely curious, how much are these other, less shameful, tournaments charging, and how much are they paying the bout committee and directors?

[scarlet_woman156k]

The tournament ran fine. I have not one complaint about how it was run. That's not what is being talked about.

But I don't understand why a director had the fencers fence a bout that didn't have a DE sheet if this was going to be a problem for the bout committee? There's more than one person besides the fencer the bout committee doesn't care for that was involved in the mishap.

It just seems odd to me?

I know if this would have happened in a local tournament that I was running, I wouldn't be bothered with it. I guess that's just me?