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CMA · 02-26-2006, 05:10 PM

i have heard of many top fencers training abroad such a sheraine mckay partly because of the higher quality of sparing partners and other reason.

so my question follows
what is the importance of a good sparing partner of partners, if not available what should you do, to make it more difficult for yourself, such as only playing defence for a bout etc?

robert · 02-26-2006, 06:36 PM

If there are two things you can not replace it is good coaching and good training partners. Lack one or both and you will not progress and may enjoy the sport less. If you are short training partners try conditional bouting (only certain moves allowed), seek out the best fencers in your club even if they are not in your weapon, try working against a lefty, try to grab the most experienced and work on tactics. Above all have fun...learn and return the favour when someone else needs a partner.

RH

KD5MDK · 02-27-2006, 12:03 AM

The important part about good training partners is you need people who can seeyour weaknesses and mistakes and exploit them. If nobody can make you suffer for telegraphing your fleche, or that raising your arm during the attack, it will take you a lot longer to fix it.

Mr Epee · 02-27-2006, 09:58 AM

In most cases, I would rank quality of bouting over quality of coaching.

If you're stuck with a bunch of muppets, you can do two things.

1. Practice coupes to the shallow hand
2. Nice clean step lunges to the body

It would be difficult to practice defense against a muppet.

Gav · 02-27-2006, 10:15 AM

Mr E is spot on. I struggle to find decent competition where I train. Unfortunately I also can't afford to move to Budapest - nearly did last year. It's one of those interminable problems that is hard to figure out and is a bit of a chicken and egg type question. It's really hard to develop any kind of complex game if your opponents only react in one or two ways. Or arse about on the piste - that is one of my top hates when training. At the end of the day if you are faced with nothing but muppets then make sure you keep it nice and neat. Don't fall into predicatable patterns either.

Padawan · 02-27-2006, 01:15 PM

In the three areas of the USA that we have set up our infrastructure to develop competitive fencing we have seen that having properly training sparing partners are more important than the coaching for a lot of people. All three areas had skilled coaches, but the area lacking a competitive infrastructure, thus not enough sparing partners. Only having good training partners are going to develop the necessary skills for distance and timing in the end. Although having both, good coaches and good sparing partners is ideal.

RebelFencer · 02-27-2006, 01:23 PM

I have essentially two clubs that I fence at. One of them is weaker than the other. In the weaker one (or against our lower ranked people at my main one) I will practice a certain technique or strategy without focusing on winning. I would argue that it's necessary to have a mixture of all skill levels so that you have a lower layer to experiment and try basic technique on, a mid layer to work more strategy and advanced technique and a layer of people better than you to fence so that you have a basis for comparison (as well as someone to knock you down a few pegs).

rcmatthews · 02-27-2006, 02:21 PM

Of course, you will fence weaker people in a tournament so it is important to know how to simplify your actions so that you can beat them 5-0 in your pools, instead of giving up a touch or two because they didnt know how they were supposed to react. However, I see little value in practicing advanced techniques that you are trying to learn against a weak opponenet. It simply wont work the same way against them as it will against a skilled opponent. With someone who is much less skilled than I am, I will simply practice doing good advanced lunges, or counterparries.

Coldfire · 02-27-2006, 11:02 PM

hm...lack of training partners. I think limiting yourself to certain actions helps. Things that you know you aren't good at or want to improve. You also gain experience by going to tourneys and just fencing. the fencers might be more competent. And you could always try and improve the bd training partners.

robert · 02-28-2006, 04:30 PM

The lack of training partners or competent ones with diverse styles seems to have hit a sore spot. I although I am past that stage now one thing I’ve done in the past is to take my kit when on business travel. I have contacted clubs in advance to ensure there was an epee fencer(s) on hand and dropped in for some bouting. If nothing else it would give new and strange partners that you would have to figure out. Also a coach can adjust individual lessons to partly compensate but not replace bouting partners.

CMA · 02-28-2006, 07:49 PM

you are really funny!!

keep your day job, get awayy from the comedy scene

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 02-28-2006, 08:25 PM

Quality sparring partners is an important ingredient when making a succesful fencer. I've found that when a fencer out grows his club (quality wise) there is more benefit to be had by skipping fencing practice and working on cross training/ solo skill work (i.e dummy work, footwork).

This is probably the only situation where going to practice less can be beneficial to the competitor. Practicing too often in a skill level far below your own can be detrimental, because it can make you sloppy and over simplify your game. Its really just a matter of transitioning your training focus to the most effective stimulus.

ThatReallyHurt · 02-28-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Quality sparring partners is an important ingredient when making a succesful fencer. I've found that when a fencer out grows his club (quality wise) there is more benefit to be had by skipping fencing practice and working on cross training/ solo skill work (i.e dummy work, footwork).

This is probably the only situation where going to practice less can be beneficial to the competitor. Practicing too often in a skill level far below your own can be detrimental, because it can make you sloppy and over simplify your game. Its really just a matter of transitioning your training focus to the most effective stimulus.

I agree with the posts so far... but could it also be a good idea to fence people far below your skill level occasionally? There have been a number of threads on the forum about experienced fencers having difficulty fencing people new to the sport.

Just a thought.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 03-01-2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

I agree with the posts so far... but could it also be a good idea to fence people far below your skill level occasionally? There have been a number of threads on the forum about experienced fencers having difficulty fencing people new to the sport.

Just a thought.

Occasionally, yes. But don't make a habit of it. When fencing a new/not so good fencer, its just crazy how easy it becomes. You do something like, circle six/flick to back, or even just an advance lunge, and it works, even though its not a full intensity move, because you do not have a full intensity opponent to operate with. Then, you go to a div 1 NAC, try some move, and they're pinging your wrist all over the place, because you're not operating at full intensity.

Peach · 03-01-2006, 10:16 AM

I had the luxury of time and the necessity of training where I do, so I concentrated on developing a strong group in my weapon--encouraging, recruiting, helping people drill, and so on--so that I end up with stronger competition at my club. I still have a number of people I can beat handily, but there are more than a few who can beat me.

I too often see people decide they need stronger competition so they go somewhere else, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Epee Scherma · 03-01-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMA

i have heard of many top fencers training abroad such a sheraine mckay partly because of the higher quality of sparing partners and other reason.

so my question follows
what is the importance of a good sparing partner of partners, if not available what should you do, to make it more difficult for yourself, such as only playing defence for a bout etc?

The only answer is to do whatever you can do, and make this your top priority to seek upper level fencing. It will cost much money and sacrifice but that is the only way. If you find yourself unable at the time to do it, then work by yourself like DFP says.

I would also add that -- when you do fence "muppets" you might find it more beneficial to just drill with them than fence. However, I have noticed that muppets have a general aversion to drills and other competitive training activities.

BenTheEMOP · 03-01-2006, 11:34 AM

Peach and Coldfire are right on this one, you need to improve the bad partners.

You do drills with them with the understanding that both people in the drill have something to work on and that you are doing the drills to work on basics. If you approach drilling with the right attitude, then it is better than working with a fencing dummy.

Also, if there is a coach available, then the people who are newer to fencing will improve, but they also need the practice.

I am in the middle at my club. I am better than some and worse than others. Those better than me try to help me, and I try to help those I am better than, and the coach is there to bring everyone along. A strong program can be built that way.

Also, just because a person is worse than you doesn't mean they can spot something you are doing wrong. Just because I can't land a point on the guys who are better than me doesn't mean that I can point out something after a bout that a fencer better than me could exploit. But you have to ask the person you are fencing what errors you made. This also gets them to start thinking beyond just 'oh, I can't beat this guy, so I will just make desparate attacks and take my lumps.'

rcmatthews · 03-01-2006, 12:18 PM

Im gonna go with DFP on this. Why waste your time improving the fencers who are much weaker than you, if you have another club you can go to with stronger fencers? I would much rather be the weak guy at the salle. There is nothing like fencing a lot of really good fencers to improve yourself.

However, if there is no other option, it is a different story.

Mr Epee · 03-01-2006, 12:22 PM

Remember that this cuts both ways.

If you are surrounded by fencers who are stronger/better than you, guess what that makes you...

Yep.

RoninX · 03-01-2006, 01:24 PM

I competely agree that fencing people better than you is the #1 best way to quickly get better. However, if that is not tempered with some real coaching you will find that while your skill may improve quickly just by bouting for awhile then plateau. It is having a good coach that really increases the ultimate ceiling for your skills.

I know alot of people who attended smaller clubs in various areas and got to the E-D level of fencing and never took consistent lessons again, 20 years of fencing later they still have the same 4-5 moves and still have never earned a C.