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View Poll Results: Voluntary withdrawl between pools and DEs | |
DFL the fencer, fencers in his pool lose their bout record against him (like a pool withdrawl).
|     | 0 | 0% | |
Seed the fencer, but treat his first bout as a forfeit (as you would if he had started DEs).
|    | 28 | 87.50% | |
DFL the fencer, fencers in his pool keep their bout record.
|    | 2 | 6.25% | |
Some other solution (explain).
|    | 1 | 3.13% | |
This flaw is polled.
|    | 1 | 3.13% | 
02-26-2006, 04:23 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CC
Posts: 2,626
| Rule Check: Withdrawls
What are you supposed to do if a fencer voluntarily withdraws between pools and DEs?
Does your decision change if they withdraw for a really good reason (to take the absurd: their mom dies)? Does your decision change if it hurts the seed of the best fencer in the competition?
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02-26-2006, 05:27 PM
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#2 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1
| If he has completed his pools, and *then* withdraws he will simply fail to show up when called to the strip for his DE, and so forfeit it.
How nice for his opponent.
If he withdraws *during* his pool, before completing all his bouts, then should be scratched from the pool.
Bad luck for any of his opponents who have already beaten him - good luck for thouse who have lost to him.
If he withdraws *during* his pool without a good reason (ie. storms off in a sulk because things are not going his way) then the fencer should receive a black card.
What a bad sport. | |
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02-26-2006, 06:51 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,353
| I had to leave a tournament at that time once to go to my grandmother's funeral.
(Prior planning, I know, but the thing was running pretty late.)
The bout committee was nice and put me in as an injury withdrawal. | |
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02-26-2006, 08:22 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| I believe that what they do (at least at NACs) is withdraw the fencer, put him at the bottom of the DE list and take up the 80% or 60%, basically one mor person will make it out of pools.
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I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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02-26-2006, 08:57 PM
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#5 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
| Anybody have the relevant rules?
This happened once in a tournament. We finished pools, signed the pool sheet. One of the fencers from our pool quit before DEs were posted. They dropped him from the pool sheet. I lost 4-5 seed positions because it erased one of my victories.
We approached the bout committee and they maintained that he had withdrawn during the pools. I didn't feel like pressing the issue too far...
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02-26-2006, 09:06 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| Hmm, I'm sure you could look through the operations section of the rule book and find out relatively easily...The response I listed was based on personal experience with having to withdraw at an NAC after pools. The pool results still stand however. Once the sheet is signed etc, those bouts are done and count; that round is over.
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I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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02-26-2006, 10:32 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 891
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by esskreemr Anybody have the relevant rules? | Yes. The first tournament where I was on the bout committee, we had three or four withdrawals. Just look up "withdrawal" in the index to find the appropriate operational rules.
In the current edition,
For withdrawing during pools, Quote: |
o.20. A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the pool, and his results are annulled as if he had not taken part.
| For withdrawing during the DEs, Quote: |
o.25. When, for whatever reason, a fencer cannot fence, or cannot complete his bout, his opponent is declared winner of that bout. A fencer who withdraws does not lose his place in the overall classification of the competition.
| And rule o.44 covers team events. | |
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02-26-2006, 10:57 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CC
Posts: 2,626
| The only problem is that those definitions don't fill the hole between the two rounds.
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02-26-2006, 11:43 PM
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#9 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,796
| If the pool round is complete, then you're into the DE rounds. | 
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02-26-2006, 11:53 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 891
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by KD5MDK If the pool round is complete, then you're into the DE rounds. | Agreed. As far as I understand, once I've signed my pool sheet, I'm done with pools, and I'm "in" DEs. | |
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02-27-2006, 12:03 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 376
| This is correct. Not sure how it works with double round of pools, though, and a withdrawl between pools.
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02-27-2006, 12:40 AM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: RPI (Troy, NY)
Posts: 912
| I would say once the sheet is signed for whatever round it is, pools, DEs that round is over and the next one begins, regardless of whether it's posted or whatever.
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02-27-2006, 12:53 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| I still question that line of thinking (once pools is over its DEs) b/c it was made very clear to me when I indicated that I wanted to withdraw after pools that I shouldn't wait to see if I made it up and then decide etc. b/c it would be a disadvantage to another fencer who paid good money to come fence. I figure if this is the case at a Div 1 NAC it probably holds true at local levels too.
__________________
I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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02-27-2006, 01:45 AM
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#14 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,796
| I think the 3rd option is the best one, and the one that ought to be applied. However, what I am most clear on is that if the pool is completed (that is, all of his bouts at least are finished), his results should stand. He doesn't even have to sign. Fencers are to be offered the opportunity to sign, but are not compelled to. | |
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02-27-2006, 02:41 AM
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#15 | | Code Ninja
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Seattle
Posts: 451
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 I still question that line of thinking (once pools is over its DEs) b/c it was made very clear to me when I indicated that I wanted to withdraw after pools that I shouldn't wait to see if I made it up and then decide etc. b/c it would be a disadvantage to another fencer who paid good money to come fence. I figure if this is the case at a Div 1 NAC it probably holds true at local levels too. | As everyone has said, if a fencer completes all their pool bouts, then their results stand. Withdrawals after the pool is complete are effectively considered to be in the DE round.
If you were told at a NAC to withdraw before seeing if you were promoted, my gut tells me that whomever told you that was incorrect in their assumption of how the promotion worked. Allowing a withdrawal to affect who gets promoted could be abused (i.e. a teammate who did better than they expected could withdraw hoping that another teammate makes the cut.)
Dan | |
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02-27-2006, 05:05 AM
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#16 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: Redwood Citay, Kalifornia
Posts: 3,176
| Black card the fencer. He doesn't appear on the results list.
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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02-27-2006, 05:47 AM
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#17 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,796
| Fencer Excluded always shows up. | |
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02-27-2006, 01:25 PM
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#18 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,554
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 I still question that line of thinking (once pools is over its DEs) b/c it was made very clear to me when I indicated that I wanted to withdraw after pools that I shouldn't wait to see if I made it up and then decide etc. b/c it would be a disadvantage to another fencer who paid good money to come fence. I figure if this is the case at a Div 1 NAC it probably holds true at local levels too. | There's absolutely no provision for voluntarily withdrawing from a tournament other than an injury withdrawl (if you consider that voluntary). You don't have the option to pull out after pools. There's no choice to be made, therefore discussion of when to make the choice is meaningless.
I agree with DBerke that whoever was informing you was wrong.
-B
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02-27-2006, 02:02 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Philly
Posts: 632
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by oiuyt There's absolutely no provision for voluntarily withdrawing from a tournament other than an injury withdrawl (if you consider that voluntary). | So, B, what then is the proper way to handle a request for withdrawal due to impending injury?
Specific case: Myself. I've had several knee injuries/surgeries in the past, and I have no inclination to repeat those experiences. If I feel my knee(s) starting to go (support musculature tiring, no longer able to maintain full fine control, etc), can I request withdrawal due to increased risk of serious injury?
Similar issue with muscle cramps. I don't think they qualify as "injury" per se, but they might increase the risk of injury just the same. | |
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02-27-2006, 02:58 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 518
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Fechter1 So, B, what then is the proper way to handle a request for withdrawal due to impending injury? | Example: "Honey, if we don't leave now, I'm gonna slap you so hard..." | |
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