How to strengthen weak parries?

[oneiromancer]

Hey folks,

My beginning fencing class recently did an in-class tournament to give us newbies a feel for what a tourney would feel like, and while I did better than I expected (placed 3rd out of 7 in my pool), One of the two fencers I lost to won simply by beating the bejeezus out of my blade. I had no chance to parry him, now matter how hard I tried. I'm a pretty small guy, and don't have a lot of strength in my wrists/forearms. We use french grips, and every time he hit my blade, it felt like it was going to fall out of my hand; I basically had to hold it like a club to keep a good grip on it, though normally I hold it properly, pinched between the first knuckle on my first finger and the pad of my thumb.

Is there any good way to strengthen my arm to help defend against those hard beats and strengthen my parry? I was thinking of switching to a pistol grip, but I'm loathe to lose the finger control that french grip provides. Are there any pistol grips that still allow good finger control? Thanks very much in advance!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I assume you're fencing foil. The reason most foilists use a pistol grip is because a french grip just isnt practical for foil. Anyway, to strength your parries, you should probably work on strengthening your upper body. Your chest, shoulders, back and forearms all play a role in blade control. Weight training can help you with that.

[rcmatthews]

Let him knock the blade out of your hand, but make sure you get back so he cant hit you in the same action.

Alternatively, you could just disengage his beat attempt, if it is as big as you say.

I don't think you really need to do any kind of weight training to increase your grip strength. If its that bad, you probably aren't fit to be fencing anyway.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Damnit ryan, thats kinda harsh "not fit to be fencing". You're acting like he's a cripple or something. I think he did ask for ways to strengthen his arm.

[oneiromancer]

We are indeed doing foil, I forgot to mention that.

[Captain Hook]

Hello

stick with the frenchie for now if your a starter and never change the way you hold it

the french grip will develop your fingers in ways a person starting with a pistol grip won't get

pistol grips will give similar finger control, but won't develop them half as well as a french grip

regarding arm strength, i'm no Arny, but my ability to grip the weapon has improved with repeated fencing.

if someone wants to constantly beat your blade it can be a sign they lack confidence in their attack. You could fight with abscence of blade... meaning they can't actually strike your sword.

saving your arms

[Beowulfman6]

First off, it is important to have a good fitness base for fencing. If you are out of shape then some weight training could definately help. Try holding your foil in the normal way and making small, circles very fast untill your arm wears our- this is a simple exercise that can increase hand and forearm streangth.

I agree with the suggestions above. Don't try to fight his beats if he is simply strong-arming you. Instead, dissengade or derobe his beat attempts and let him make the opening for you.

Definately stick to the french grip for a little while- it will force you to develop finger streangth. Once you become a little better start to experiment with different grips until you find one you like. I find that the right pistol grip gives more strength and authority, yet doesn't impede finger controll.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is how you parry. Are you parrying with the foible (end of the blade), middle, or forte (strong, thick part at the base)? This is a matter of leverage; pary with the forte against your oponents foible and you have a very strong mechanical advantage no matter how strong he is.

Also, don't be embarrased about droping your weapon. It is an uncoforabble feeling when you think you're losing you grip, but we all drop weapons now and then (even experianced fencers with pistol grips).

[edew]

There's never a need to strengthen one's parry. If anything, I'd say there's a need to "weaken" one's parry. (Too many people, including those who were bashing your blade, parry or beat too hard. A light parry or beat is much better in the long run.)

That said, rather than up the arms race by trying to strengthen your parry to meet an imposing beat, leverage your opponent's mistake of making heavy-handed beats by disengaging against the attempted beat and attack immediately. At best, they'll miss your body altogether and you'll hit them. At worst, you hit off-target, they hit off-target. In all cases, because they missed your blade during their search, you have the right of way.

Now, there is a need to strengthen your hands so that you can do a quicker parry, or control your blade when being beat, or be able to make that quick disengage at the last moment when your opponent makes that heavy beat. Under those circumstances, I'd advise squeeze balls such as a weakened tennis ball or those specialty gummy finger exercisers. Just expanding and contracting your fingers very fast can help some.

My guess is that you just probably need to acclimate yourself to the grip and learn how to effectively wield it. Once you've acclimated yourself, you should have no problems deceiving beats as well as make counter-parry actions. But remember, once you've mastered the control, don't go the dark side and start swinging the blade like it's a tennis racket. Control and make "weak" beats and parries. They're far more effective in the long run.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I assume you're fencing foil. The reason most foilists use a pistol grip is because a french grip just isnt practical for foil. Anyway, to strength your parries, you should probably work on strengthening your upper body. Your chest, shoulders, back and forearms all play a role in blade control. Weight training can help you with that.

The reason most foilists don't use a French grip (for competition) is that it's easier to use a pistol. Not better, just easier. So there's not particular need to switch. Admittedly in competition I use pistol grips, but I give virtually all of my lessons with French grip and can still hit our fencers when necessary (with a size two blade, at that ).

As many have already said, there's also no real need to 'strengthen' your parry immediately. There are times that a strong, dominant blade take has good tactical reasoning, but usually it's not necessary. A certain amount of physical training is important if you want to be a competitive athlete (not just in fencing, but really in anything). Cardiovascular, leg, and core work will probably take you further in fencing than any amount of upper body, though. The foil only weighs 500 grams, after all, whereas I expect you way a great deal more than that.

Again, as many have said, avoiding your opponent's attempt to take your blade will probably serve you better than trying to be 'stronger' than him. Also (depending on the situation and the official), if you need to control his attack you could look into yielding parries that use the strength of his action against him (think judo). Absence of the blade is also a good suggestion, if you are familiar with the rest of the tactical and technical framework that goes with it.

As Edew mentioned, if your opponent misses his search, right of the attack passes to you. Don't put a huge amount of money on that though. Even from a theoretical view point, this is really only true if you are making an attack while your opponent is searching, and even then not all officials will give it to you. Some will, some won't, some will give you any attack during/soon after a search, some are very strict that your action must be during the search. It's part of what makes the sport complex.

HTH

[edew]

keropie, read the rulebook. If an attacker searches for the blade and fails to find it (derobement, for example), the right to attack passes to the opponent. So I can be completely stationary and wait for my opponent to start an attack. If during that attack, my opponent searches for my blade and I deceive it, I may then commence an attack and my opponent's continuation of his attack is no longer with right of way. I now have it. Of course, I must commence immediately and my opponent's search must be obvious to the referee. (It's possible for my opponent to make a spiraling action that looks more like a plain attack rather than a search. In that case, if the search is successful, it becomes a prise de fer or a beat or a bind, and if the search is unsuccessful, the referee may interpret the action as a plain-old attack. People work on that action, of course.)

But the blade actions where a fencer is whacking at the blade so hard as to require asking how to deal with it in such a thread as this would not likely be seen by the referee as a plain-old attack. It's clearly going to be a search and if the search is not successful, the right to attack passes to the opponent.

Big beats that succeed may prevent the opponent from making effective parries. But big beats are also easily evadable, because they're so easily seen.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Damnit ryan, thats kinda harsh "not fit to be fencing". You're acting like he's a cripple or something. I think he did ask for ways to strengthen his arm.

Well, I didn't quite mean it that way. More to the effect that if you need to do strength training to hold your blade, youre probably not going to be able to do all that much fencing anyway. I mean, i have seen 5 year old girls hold a foil before.

[oneiromancer]

Wow, this is really great advice. As I look back on that bout, I realize that my opponent lead off his attack every time with a downward beat. I should have just let his blade slide on by and easily get my touch in. Hindsight is 20/20, however He only beat me 5/4, so I think the next time I face him I'll have a better idea on what to do. Thanks

[OROD]

If you want to strengthen your arm and be able to make really strong parries then you should do what I do... I practice parrying with a 3 foot long lead pipe. I shìt you not, I go to the club and get someone to drill with me... he attacks, I parry with my lead pipe, over and over, sometimes I also practice flicking with it. I've been training like this for two years and my right forearm is freakin huge! Of course, sometimes having one huge arm and another normal one is not so great... I mean, if I'm not paying attention when I walk down the street it'll cause me to veer to the right, that kinda sucks. But, hey, you gotta make some sacrifices for the sport you know!


.

[keropie]

Originally Posted by edew

keropie, read the rulebook. If an attacker searches for the blade and fails to find it (derobement, for example), the right to attack passes to the opponent. So I can be completely stationary and wait for my opponent to start an attack. If during that attack, my opponent searches for my blade and I deceive it, I may then commence an attack and my opponent's continuation of his attack is no longer with right of way. I now have it. Of course, I must commence immediately and my opponent's search must be obvious to the referee. (It's possible for my opponent to make a spiraling action that looks more like a plain attack rather than a search. In that case, if the search is successful, it becomes a prise de fer or a beat or a bind, and if the search is unsuccessful, the referee may interpret the action as a plain-old attack. People work on that action, of course.)

But the blade actions where a fencer is whacking at the blade so hard as to require asking how to deal with it in such a thread as this would not likely be seen by the referee as a plain-old attack. It's clearly going to be a search and if the search is not successful, the right to attack passes to the opponent.

Edew, watch more fencing (which I'm sure you have, just as I've read the rulebook). We both know that the written rule is far inferior in reality than both the interpretation of the rule and the observation of the events by the referee. I can not ever recall seeing a trompement as a reliable action for any official. I do not believe that I would reward a bent arm deceive against a potential search very often if both fencers 'finish' their 'attacks.' It just doesn't strike one as a 'real' attack on preparation, and the observation of the action is spotty at best. Yes, I agree that if, during the fencers search (i.e., before he begins his continuation/renews his attack/whatever) his opponent makes an attack, it is an attack on preparation. But we've likely both made very strong attempts to take the blade that don't find it but that we immediately continue to the target knowing that the official will reward our 'attack' regardless of it's hole.

Of course, I must commence immediately and my opponent's search must be obvious to the referee.

This is the part that I find means we probably agree after all This action (the deceive of the search) is almost universally called if you've established point-in-line (a true derobement), but considerably less often from the bent arm deceive through the attack (trompement). And unless the search is grossly exaggerated, I'd find it very hard for someone to establish a line with this deceive, which should be possible if the search truly ends the right of way of the attacker. So basically I'm just trying to make sure that the OP takes into account that while he may be technically right on some actions into the search, they may well not be rewarded, and some actions that he thinks may be technically correct may actually be mis-executed and therefore no longer correct.

Cheers

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by keropie

The reason most foilists don't use a French grip (for competition) is that it's easier to use a pistol. Not better, just easier.

It's better...which is why 100% of the successful internationial foilists use them. I'm guessing that all the people on the US points list in foil use pistol grips as well, but I can't back that up, so I'll just say nearly all. It's a huge strength advantage with very little disadvantage. French grips are used in epee, because when one posts with them there is the additional distance advantage that isn't present in foil.


To the threadstarter, don't worry about his beats right now. Once you become better and more experienced, you'll learn to disengage his blade effectively, and you'll find that these beats are not a good strategy against someone with any arm strength. For now, do what others have said, and practice disengages and absence of blade. Oh, and my above comments aren't intended to make you switch to a pistol grip, there's plenty of time for that later on, fence with what you're comfortable with for now. Once you start being very competitive, though, don't be afraid to make the change.

[royh]

I basically had to hold it like a club to keep a good grip on it, though normally I hold it properly, pinched between the first knuckle on my first finger and the pad of my thumb.

And the other fingers are free? If so, don't do that. Hold the foil with all your fingers.

[RITFencing]

One other bit of advice that I didn't see covered (apologies if I missed it) is to try and make sure that if the blades come into contact with each other, his foible (weak part of the blade towards the end) is hitting your forte (strong part of the blade towards the bell guard.) This will make your parries more effective and his beats less effective.

[KD5MDK]

The alternative to disengaging (which is usually the best idea) is to take the beat and yield with it, then immediately parry. The referee should hear the two blade hits and know "beat attack, parry". If you're fortunate, of course.

[Allen Evans]

Why are you leaving your blade in a line it can be easily beat in?

[rory]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It's better...which is why 100% of the successful internationial foilists use them. I'm guessing that all the people on the US points list in foil use pistol grips as well, but I can't back that up, so I'll just say nearly all.

Ummmm.
Sorry mrbiggs, but you're wrong here.
(At least) one successful international fencer that I'm aware of uses a French in competition sometimes. His name is Erwann Le Pechoux, and he's ranked No. 2 in the world at mens' foil.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It's a huge strength advantage with very little disadvantage. French grips are used in epee, because when one posts with them there is the additional distance advantage that isn't present in foil.

The pistol does give you a massive strength advantage - but a good fencer can outweight this by utilising the extra reach and slightly better point control. There's a veteran foilist by the name of Nick Bell here in the UK (2 time Olympian at foil and once at epee IIRC) who uses French grips exclusively: he's a counterattacker, and the extra reach is very very useful to him.

The pistol is, undoubtedly, easier to learn and lends itself better to the modern game of foil as practised by most fencers: but there are still fencers who can use the French very effectively.