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Scaramouche · 01-10-2002, 08:13 AM

I've only been fencing for one semester and have only done foil so far. My club's doing a Beginning Epee class this semester and I'm wondering if it would be a really bad idea to try to do both weapons. I was talking to my coach today and he said he'd rather have us do one weapon for an entire year so we don't ruin our "technique" for the one weapon. I would really like to be exposed to another weapon but if it's really a bad idea, then I'll be patient and wait to do epee next Fall

Mergs · 01-10-2002, 09:23 AM

I suggest that you go with your coaches advice. I would say that you need to get the basics that foil will give you ingrained so that the transition to epee will go more smoothly.

There has been much discussion over the years as to which weapon should be taught first. The argument that epee is simplier, not as many rules to remember, etc. may be valid, but the skills learned there are not as transferable as they are from foil to the other two.

Good luck.

edew · 01-10-2002, 09:51 AM

That's one opinion. Here's another: might you be better suited for epee? Are you tall, long-limbed? If so, switch immediately to epee and don't look back. While the techniques you learn for foil are pretty much applicable for epee, there are a lot of things quite different for epee that you can't learn by doing better in foil, and it might be better if you go directly to epee with a fresh plate, rather than carrying a bunch of foil baggage.

But once you go forward, you almost can't go back.

It's up to you, ultimately, not your coach.

HilandDoug · 01-10-2002, 12:35 PM

Eric, why do you say you can't go back?

Christopher J Umbs · 01-10-2002, 01:02 PM

Doug,

I agree with Eric here. Once you learn a non-priority weapon like epee (or any of the historical weapons) it's almost impossible to go back and try to learn a priority weapon like foil or sabre. You have the tendency to want to stop-thrust or counter-attack everything.

Chris

Scaramouche · 01-10-2002, 01:16 PM

One of the dudes in my club who's a D in epee started foil last semester with the beginners and he's doing pretty good so far! Sometimes he has a little trouble with right-of-way rules but that's understandable for anyone beginning foil.

But since I know less than everyone about the issue at hand I'll just shut up now

wlc · 01-10-2002, 01:20 PM

I would take your coaches advice. Give yourself a chance to learn right-of-way. I fence sabre and epee, and in the distant past I first fenced foil. I think you can fence epee and one of the "other weapons" if you learn to parry. But I do agree that it's hard to go back if you start early with epee.

LeftyMutantChild · 01-10-2002, 03:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by edew:
[QB]That's one opinion. Here's another: might you be better suited for epee? Are you tall, long-limbed? If so, switch immediately to epee and don't look bacBut once you go forward, you almost can't go back.
[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Being an extremely short and short-reached epeeist, I would like to declare my minute offense at this stereotype.

That being duly said I'll admit that reach can be a "benefit" for those with monkey arms.

edew · 01-10-2002, 03:25 PM

I never suggested that if you're short, or short-limbed, you should not go to epee. I only suggested that if you're tall and long-limbed, why the heck aren't you already in epee in the first place? It's like getting a 7' 4" guy and wondering whether to put him at center or point guard. Duh. If you're 6' 4", the coach might not put you in as center, unless you work real hard and demonstrate that you have the skills and abilities to play that position. But that's another issue.

As for going back, what I really meant is continuing (at this beginning stage) to do both. I think for beginners, one should stick with one weapon and really learn it. People generally start with foil, because of some bug-*** old reason to do so. But if you feel like going with new stuff (epee or sabre), go right ahead, but I don't think it's a good idea to trade between the two. Master one, then you may consider trying the other. At this stage, presumably, Scaramouche is a complete fencing virgin. She can go foil or epee or sabre and not be tainted with different techniques. But once she starts on one path, be it foil or sabre or epee, she should stick with it. I believe the point of the coach is precisely that, and in that case, perhaps she should listen to the coach and stick with foil. But then again, with 10 weeks of fencing under her belt, she's capable of trying something else and doing well in it.

damianip · 01-10-2002, 06:23 PM

I'm with Eric. I started fencing with the intention of ending up in épée. After about 18 months of foil I started épée. However, I continued with foil because I thought it was the right (read "traditional") thing to do.

Within months I was neither a foilist nor an épéeist. I was getting spanked badly in both weapons and making many mistakes: hit on the hand a lot in épée, counter-attacking too much in foil, too much parry and retreat in épée, lousy parry-ripostes in foil, etc. etc..

Last year I dropped all pretensions of competing in foil and concentrated on épée. The result: better épée results. I still lose to the good guys, but I win a good number of the ones against Es and Ds.

My analysis? I was not developed enough as a fencer to switch back and forth between two weapons. After getting my foundation in foil, I should have made the change to épée and stuck with it.

Maybe in a few more years I'll try competing in foil again, but for now, it's compete in épée exclusively and dabble in foil at the club when the beginners and intermediates need an opponent.

BTW, for the record, I'm not that tall (5'11"), but I do have monkey arms.

Paolo

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: damianip ]</p>

Inquartata · 01-10-2002, 08:14 PM

Remember, too, that foil and sabre at least share the ROW convention; to that extent there's likely to be the least "cross-interference" between these two, while epee is "neither fish nor fowl" in that respect.

There! Even more confused than before?

Boo Boo · 01-11-2002, 03:05 AM

Most of the good epeeists and sabreurs I know reached a good standard in foil before moving to epee (so can switch back to foil, almost seamlessly, when they want).

There are a few very good sabreurs I know who have fenced exclusively sabre (and never really done any foil), if they ever fence foil now they find it very frustrating (mainly because of the timing) - however, this may change as foil timing "evolves".

A number of clubs (including my main club) seem to be teaching sabre, instead of foil, to beginners. I think this is a shame.

Foil seems to provide a good grounding for all weapons, not sure about the other way around. But I fence almost exclusively foil since that is my passion, so may be biased :-)

Life is all about personal choice: are your fencing goals achievement or enjoyment oriented (although enjoyment often fuels achievement and vice versa)? If you want to become a foilist or a good general fencer, then you should stick with foil for a bit longer. If you really think that you have a passion, talent or the natural attributes (a good coach should be able to spot the last two) for sabre or epee then maybe you want to consider swapping earlier.

Boo
(who started fencing by learning epee, but saw the light - and switched to foil - after 4 months and hasn't been too damaged by the experience).

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Boo Boo ]</p>

Pierfrancesco · 01-11-2002, 04:48 AM

Thats quite interesting.. I've been fencing about 5 months and have only done foil apart from a fun one touch epee competition ( i won 4 out of about 12 or 13) and hadn't really considered taking up epee yet. I'm reasonably tall (6'1 or so) and i've got fairly long arms (has come in handy so far) so that would probably be useful for epee. No has suggested i try epee though. I enjoy foil and i think i'll stay with it a while longer before i consider other weapons. I've noticed that epee is the most popular weapon at the club, on a usual practice night there will be say 4-6 foilists max and about 10 ish epeeists. and no sabre!

Boo Boo · 01-11-2002, 05:36 AM

Height can also be an advantage in foil (not just epee).

Until recently we had a foilist here who was very tall (over 6 foot - so considerably taller than the other women foilists). Several people tried to convince her to switch to epee, but she stuck with foil. She was in the national top 10 at foil(senior) - although she could have done the same at epee - and started making Last 8s at Junior foil A-grades. Her style was nothing really amazing (although not bad), but her height really helped. Unfortunately she has now retired through injury.

As my coach told her, internationally a lot of women epeeists are tall, but not that many women foilists: so, internationally, your height is more of an advantage in foil than epee.

Boo
(who wishes that she was taller - she felt like a very little person when she fenced Evan Ranes last week...)

edew · 01-11-2002, 07:12 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Boo Boo:
<strong>
Boo
(who wishes that she was taller - she felt like a very little person when she fenced Evan Ranes last week...)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did you fence Heik Hambarzumian? He could make some people feel like a very little person, too.

Boo Boo · 01-11-2002, 08:57 AM

Yes, I fenced Heik. He is a nice height and a nice chap. Am afraid that I bruised him a bit though :-( (I was suffering from post-Christmas rustiness and was punching my attack too much :-((( ).

Boo
(was very impressed with Las Vegas Fencing Centre)

Boo Boo · 01-11-2002, 09:10 AM

Oh, and forgot to say, a very nice fencer too: he is a very proper, technical fencer who has definitely moved with the times (v. sharp - both physically and mentally). I would imagine that he is a very good coach too.

Boo

D'Artagnan1673 · 03-11-2002, 11:58 AM

Learn Foil first. Foil teachers point control, timing, distance, footwork, strategy. Because foil is a conventional weapon, the foilest must adhere to the rules of a proper engagement, or his touches will be thrown out as counterattacks.

Master foil before you go on to Epee. I personally feel that Epee is the ultimate of all weapons, but I do not think that foil should be overlooked. An epeeist without form and control given by foil will be nothing but a poker and a hacker. Give yourself an advantage over your opponent by progressing to Epee with a very strong sense of self control. Logic tells us that order cannot come from disorder.

Masterfulks · 03-13-2002, 09:21 AM

I started fencing somewhere around 2 years ago. I fence all 3 weapons. I'd say stick with foil for the first couple months, then pick up whatever else you want.

I hear a lot of people say that you should only focus on one weapon. I say do what you want to do. If you can separate the rules and strageties in your head go for it. I love all 3 weapons, and feel that if you don't give the others a try you are really missing out.

Inquartata · 03-13-2002, 03:56 PM

Well..foil certainly teaches foil timing, distance, footwork and strategy. From what I see in competitions these days it doesn't really teach much in the way of point control any more. But whether it's better to learn the specifics for one weapon and then try to adjust them to another or just to start from scratch with what you plan to do---I am not as sure as most seem to be.

I think many coaches start their students with foil because (a) it's the weapon they're most experienced with / comfortable in teaching, and (b) most novices are not really equipped to decide yet which weapon they're best suited to or where their preference lies. If you know, though, why waste time learning something you aren't going to do?