Fencing vs. Taekwondo

[IanSerotkin]

So my girlfriend finally convinced me to try Taekwondo (she's a 2nd degree black belt), and I've been going to classes for around three weeks now. I thought it would be interesting to post my first impressions of the martial art and some of the chief differences between the two (aside from the entirely obvious).

1) You mean it's not just for covering?
Worrying about the left side of my body, previously only good for covering target, is an entirely new experience. Punches and kicks have to be equally good with both sides of the body. I'm still getting used to this.

2) What is this mystical third dimension you speak of?
Fencing is pretty much two-dimensional, aside from the occasional jump off the side of the strip. In Taekwondo, you're constantly changing directions, turning around, blocking behind where you were just facing, and kicking towards the attacker coming at you from behind.

3) What is this, the Olympics?
At every TKD tournament, there's an opening ceremony where all the Masters present are introduced, all the judges take an oath to be fair, and all the competitors bow in and take an oath themselves. It takes forever.

4) Conflict, what conflict?
The tournaments are just as chaotic as fencing tournaments, in some ways even more so--there are a billion different categories, and there's no way of knowing in advance when your ring is going to be competing. All black belts are expected to help judge the lower ranks any time they're not competing--for free. There's no central person really "in charge" of the judges, which leads to some interesting things like two of the three judges in one ring I watched being from the same school as 90% of the competitors in the ring.

5) Well, at least they haven't changed the timings.
Most of the judging (form and weapon form segments) is extremely subjective...it basically comes down to how close to "perfect" your movements were, as interpreted by the judges. No electrical scoring machines for the sparring segments...the quality of the calls was roughly equivalent to dry fencing. What I DID like is that absolutely no arguing under any circumstances is allowed.

6) That's a hell of a first DE...
The sparring segments of a tournament run roughly like a DE tableau, except with almost no seeding at all. If you're a State Champ or a World Champ, you get first crack at a bye if there is an incomplete table. In all other cases, they just pick names out of a hat to populate the seeding table. Your first match of the day might very well be the hardest.

7) ...and Jupiter aligns with Mars...
When your instructor thinks you're ready for a new belt in TKD, you test for it. If you're good enough, you get it. If you're not, you don't get it. You don't have to hope and pray that the stars and the moon align and fifteen people of the right ratings show up and the DE tableau shuffles the right way.

8) I suck.
OK...I've been fencing for twelve years, I've got more local medals than I know what to do with, I'm a national ref, I can give a mediocre fencing lesson. Going back to the beginning for something new is absolutely humbling, and I have to say I love it. It feels good to learn something entirely new again from the beginning, but my GOD is it hard. My fencing experience helps in a few aspects, like being able to slow down the actions and parse them better than I think I'd be able to otherwise, but for the most part it's all Greek to me.


In short, it's definitely a different experience. I'm really enjoying myself so far and I think I'll stick with it for a while. Despite all the differences, I think it's great cross-training for fencing and definitely a great workout.

[Mr Epee]

This bears mentioning.

TKD is not a superior sport product to fencing.

It is marketed much better, and managed to work their way INTO the Olympics, while fencers seem to be constantly fretting about getting tossed out of the Olympics. Take a look at their BoD. You might think it's a bunch of old Asian dudes, but it's not.

I had a copy of their marketing plan a while back, but seem to have lost it. I'm going to start looking for it in earnest.

[Feraud]

Question about TKD:
Do you punch at all in sport TKD or just kick?
I saw it on the Titan Games and they looked like they could only kick and not use their hands.

[Feraud]

I did a form of eastern martial art (Kung Fu) for a few years while being in and out of fencing. I fenced first before trying m.a.
My experiences were similar.
The first tournament (I don’t know how consistent the rules for these things are between arts) I retreated straight back like a fencer and stepped out of the ring (doh!)
There were so many divisions of; colored belt, black belt, age, weight, ect. Everyone was guaranteed a trophy cause there were like 3 people in each div.
The sparring distance is MUCH closer than fencing distance, its nice being able to keep your opponent 3-4’ away.
I thought belt tests at our club were pretty hokey, never saw anyone fail one, the more money you paid to the Sifu the higher belt rank you got. And while fencing letter rankings sometimes don’t give you a clear measure of fencing ability. M.A. belt rankings were even more inconsistent.

My conclusion? And I’m biased because I started with and stayed with fencing. Fencing is a better “martial sport” in terms of how it’s taught, scored, how competitions are run, ect. It benefits from certain technology like light flexible steel weapons and electric scoring that really couldn’t be applied well to other fighting forms. It’s fun and challenging in that respect. From a martial arts perspective the actual weapon technique is pretty clear and efficient and there’s no misplace emphasis on form like in the Asian styles.

[jBirch]

I've actually been wondering if there is a place in modern sport fencing for a "forms" category.

James.

[RITFencing]

I'd doubt it; they'd be rather boring to watch, and fencing is a sport all about direct competition. Besides, with all the politics in high level competition, partiality would get even worse.

EDIT: Also, so many things in fencing like blade transfers, beats, opposition attacks (basically anything with blade contact) just aren't the same when done against an imaginary opponent.

[Mr T]

Back in asia, they decided my belt based on how many ninjas I could beat up. 1 ninja and I got a yellow belt, 2 ninjas was a a green belt, 3 was a blue belt, you get the picture. Most martial arts are corrupted. They teach you how to fight other martial artists, not real people who actually want to hurt you.

[IanSerotkin]

Originally Posted by Feraud

Question about TKD:
Do you punch at all in sport TKD or just kick?
I saw it on the Titan Games and they looked like they could only kick and not use their hands.

Whether you can punch or not--and where--depends on the style of TKD. In the one I'm doing (Songham ATA), you can both punch and kick.

When sparring, you can kick to the head or body, but you can only punch to the body. Kicks are emphasized somewhat over punches, primarily because you have a much longer reach when you kick. Also, you get added points while sparring for blows to the head (1 point for a blow to the body, +1 for a blow to the head, +1 for a jump kick). Since you can't get either of the +1's with hand strikes, that's another reason why you sometimes see a lot more kicks than punches in sparring.

Again, I can only speak for the one style I've been doing for three weeks, so please don't consider me the world's ambassador of TKD or anything.

[Feraud]

The other thing I could never adapt to in any of the Asian m.a.s was the high kicking. No amount of stretching would ever impart to me the ability to raise my foot above my waist. I never saw the use of trying to kick someone that high anyways, they’d just sweep you onto the ground in an instant, although it wasn’t allowed in the tournaments I went to.
Tournament fighting (and I'm not sure what "style" of competition I was in) wasn’t fighting in the sense that the only target allowed (for colored belt) was to hit the front of the torso, no back, kidneys, head shots, sweeps or throws. Pretty much fighting with all the stuff that would actually hurt someone taken out. Black Belts were allowed to hit the head but not the face. In one tournament the final match was lost by a guy who did that. Maybe today there’s some kind of high-tech sparring gear worn to allow strikes, it looks like there is in TKD.

[Feraud]

Originally Posted by Mr T

Most martial arts are corrupted. They teach you how to fight other martial artists, not real people who actually want to hurt you.

I only know how to fight other foilists...

[Feraud]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

Whether you can punch or not--and where--depends on the style of TKD. In the one I'm doing (Songham ATA), you can both punch and kick.

When sparring, you can kick to the head or body, but you can only punch to the body. Kicks are emphasized somewhat over punches, primarily because you have a much longer reach when you kick. Also, you get added points while sparring for blows to the head (1 point for a blow to the body, +1 for a blow to the head, +1 for a jump kick). Since you can't get either of the +1's with hand strikes, that's another reason why you sometimes see a lot more kicks than punches in sparring.

Again, I can only speak for the one style I've been doing for three weeks, so please don't consider me the world's ambassador of TKD or anything.

Is there a difference between “sport TKD” and “martial art TKD”
Like… are there “classical” TKDists?

Oh I didn’t mean to go there…

[Mr T]

Originally Posted by Feraud

I only know how to fight other foilists...

Perfectly acceptable. Foil is not a martial art. Heck, its not even an art.


Foil is a game played with fairy wands, trying to "touch" each others chests and backs.

[Captain Hook]

Originally Posted by Feraud

I only know how to fight other foilists...

fight people with foils

stab those without

[Christopher J Umbs]

And to make it really interesting. Many traditional martial artists DESPISE the olympic style of TKD or other judged styles like Wushu
( http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/Interview.htm) mostly for focusing on flashy moves that you'd never do on the street.

Chris

[Feraud]

Originally Posted by Mr T

Perfectly acceptable. Foil is not a martial art. Heck, its not even an art.


Foil is a game played with fairy wands, trying to "touch" each others chests and backs.

I think it’s been said before but
Foil is Art
Saber is Theater
Epee is Truth.

So Foil IS an art…

Hey this thread is about TKD, bashing Foil is another topic. Go to the “Epeeists Only Forum”

[Mr T]

They were wrong.

Its that simple.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Mr T

They were wrong.

Its that simple.

To quote Strong Bad's Rhythm n' Grammar:

Ohhhhhhh If you want it to be possessive, it's just "I-T-S."
But, if it's supposed to be a contraction then it's "I-T-apostrophe-S,"

...scalawag.

[andrewmcleod]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

All black belts are expected to help judge the lower ranks any time they're not competing--for free. There's no central person really "in charge" of the judges, which leads to some interesting things like two of the three judges in one ring I watched being from the same school as 90% of the competitors in the ring.

Just like a UK (fencing) competition then - where there are proper referees (often only at late stages, even in championships), they are rarely paid more than expenses.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I had a copy of their marketing plan a while back, but seem to have lost it. I'm going to start looking for it in earnest.

Marketing plan from before or after they financially imploded a couple of years ago?

TKD is an example of a sport that the USOC took over, restructured, and is now back out on their own. From references I've caught from TKD practicioners they're generally happy with the new strucutre. It might be interesting to see more about how they're organized.

-B

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Marketing plan from before or after they financially imploded a couple of years ago?

TKD is an example of a sport that the USOC took over, restructured, and is now back out on their own. From references I've caught from TKD practicioners they're generally happy with the new strucutre. It might be interesting to see more about how they're organized.

-B

Great question... I still haven't come up with it. It had the new logo that was issued as part of the restructure, and new marketing approach efforts, so it had to have been done in conjunction with the restructure efforts.