Fencing vs. Taekwondo

[FencingKitten]

I used to train in TKD, but in a very non-traditionalist style - my instructor had a philosophy of, "I want you to be able to compete if you go to another school, but d*mned if I'm going to let you walk out of here and not be able to hold your own on the street." Now, I'd been out of training for a while before I took up fencing, but you're absolutely right - it's a FABULOUS cross-training, in my opinion. I will be taking it up again as soon as I can support my fencing habit, my pool habit, and my TKD habit with my income

Originally Posted by Feraud

Fencing is a better “martial sport” in terms of how it’s taught, scored, how competitions are run, ect.

I never competed in TKD, but I'm glad to know fencing does at least a few things right

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

my pool habit

This is the one that's supposed to be able to support the others....

-B

[PalmFrond]

What kind of TKD are you doing? If it's Olympic TKD, then fair play to you - I have friends from my kickboxing days who competed in Olympic TKD, and it looked utterly bewildering. This is thanks mostly to the scoring system, which in larger comps involved four judges pressing a button within a certain time frame. Makes me realise how lucky fencers are, timing changes and all.

Speaking about forms in fencing: something which Kenpoists compete in, which might translate to sport fencing a little better than solo forms, is self-defence demonstrations. It might be possible to do the same sort of thing in a fencing tournament - have a pair of fencers perform a series of techniques and score them on form, prettiness, relationship to the judges, whatever. Can't say I'd be hugely keen on it myself, but if it makes you smile...

[jeff]

I trained in kung fu for several years, and to a lesser extent, hapkido. The 3-dimensionality didn't feel much a shock to me, for whatever reason. The bigger factors were:

- use of both sides - two arms to hit with, two legs, and multiple striking surfaces (fist, palm, elbow, different parts of foot, knee)
- shorter distance
- 'stance before strike' instead of 'hand before foot'. That was probably the hardest thing to adjust to.

I didn't get into competition - I competed in forms once but was disillusioned: the black belts from karate styles had no idea what they were looking at, and basically had to guess for tai chi or kung fu performers. One guy studying the same style as me came in second, got a nice trophy, even though he dropped about a third of the form. I had no interest in competing in the fighting events; I don't need to go to work the next day with a broken nose because i missed a block!

As far as 'fencing forms' go: Adam Crowne has created one and two-person forms for educational purpose, calling them 'etudes'. I haven't seen them, so have no idea what they look like, if he intends them to ever be used for competition, or if anyone else has adopted the idea. I'm not keen on it myself either, as PalmFrond says, but whatever floats your boat...

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by Feraud

The other thing I could never adapt to in any of the Asian m.a.s was the high kicking. No amount of stretching would ever impart to me the ability to raise my foot above my waist. I never saw the use of trying to kick someone that high anyways, they’d just sweep you onto the ground in an instant, although it wasn’t allowed in the tournaments I went to.
Tournament fighting (and I'm not sure what "style" of competition I was in) wasn’t fighting in the sense that the only target allowed (for colored belt) was to hit the front of the torso, no back, kidneys, head shots, sweeps or throws. Pretty much fighting with all the stuff that would actually hurt someone taken out. Black Belts were allowed to hit the head but not the face. In one tournament the final match was lost by a guy who did that. Maybe today there’s some kind of high-tech sparring gear worn to allow strikes, it looks like there is in TKD.

Not all asian martial arts involve high kicking. Several of the Japanese styles limit kicking to below the waist only. TaeKwanDo is not one of these.

There are a number of different TaeKwanDo organizations within the U.S. and worldwide. They each have different rules for sparring competitions.

The Olympics uses the rules of the World TaeKwonDo Federation, represented in the U.S. by USA TwaKwonDo.

To summarize: Punches to torso and Kicks to face and torso. Body is one point, face is two points. Knockdown is an additional point.

Article 11. Permitted Techniques and Areas
1. Permitted Techniques
1) Fist techniques:
Delivering techniques by using the front parts of the forefinger and middle finger
of the tightly clenched fist.
2) Foot techniques:
Delivering techniques by using the parts of the foot below the ankle bone.
2. Permitted Areas
1) Trunk:
Attack by fist and foot techniques on the areas covered by the trunk protector are
permitted. However, such attacks shall not be made on the part of the spine.
2) Face:
This area is the face excluding the back of the head, and attack by foot techniques
only is permitted.

Article 12. Valid Points
1. Legal Scoring Areas
1) Mid-section of the trunk: The part covered by the trunk protector.
2) Face: The whole part of the face above the collarbone, including both ears.
2. Points shall be awarded when permitted techniques are delivered accurately and
powerfully to the legal scoring areas of the body.
3. The valid points are divided as follows:
1) One (1) point for attack on trunk protector
2) Two (2) points for attack on the face
3) One (1) additional point shall be awarded in the event that the contestant is knocked
down and the referee counts. (Please see Article 17, “Knock Down.”)
4. Match score shall be the sum of points of the three rounds.

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by Feraud

Is there a difference between “sport TKD” and “martial art TKD”
Like… are there “classical” TKDists?

Oh I didn’t mean to go there…

Oh my yes. Plus there are pre-unification styles as well

TaeKwanDo was created in the 1960's by combining 8 different Korean styles into one single school. So if you go to a school that teaches Chung-Moo-Kwan or Tang-soo-do, these are some of the styles that TaeKwanDo was created from. These kind of schools don't pay any attention to the Olympic style sparring, and some don't have a competition sparring component to their advancement testing at all. They're becoming rarer now that TaeKwanDo sparring is an Olympic event though.

All the schools that I've ever heard of teach martial art TaeKwanDo as the basics of what they teach. 90% of the hand and foot techniques are not legal for competition sparring however.

gary hayenga

[oiuyt]

http://www.artisticfencing.com/

-B

[teamusaepee]

When I started fencing (foil), it felt much like TKD sparring regarding the distance. My biggest problem was fighting the urge to cover my chest with my arms every time someone lunged at me.

I am sure that TKD tournaments vary widely in how they are run, but in my neck of the woods:
-Everyone paid to enter the venue, including parents and other spectators. Entry fees were comparable, if not more expensive than those of fencing tournaments. My mom had to pay extra money to videotape me at one tournament!
-Judging, well, let me just say it was completely subjective and I never understood why I did or did not win, in forms and sparring. In fact, in one sparring bout a girl much larger than me stepped to the side, kicked me in the face bloodying my nose, and they disqualified me because I couldn't continue. Later my mom told me the judge told her that they couldn't disqualify the other girl because her father was hosting the tournament.
-This has also been mentioned, but talk about headaches when you have tons of events (7 and under, 8-9, 10-11, etc for all belt levels, both men and women, and forms and sparring) all in one weekend.

Despite my experiences with tournaments, I loved studying TKD. I developed great leg strength and power, flexibility, and kinesthetic awareness which helped me later in fencing. Belt testing at my first school was all about $$ and could be at any time (or never if you didn't have money), but at my second school there were attendance cards and when you attended X number of classes, you got to test. It was a good system and fair to those who were dedicated.

[edew]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I'd doubt it; they'd be rather boring to watch, and fencing is a sport all about direct competition. Besides, with all the politics in high level competition, partiality would get even worse.

EDIT: Also, so many things in fencing like blade transfers, beats, opposition attacks (basically anything with blade contact) just aren't the same when done against an imaginary opponent.

Not only that, the best, coolest move in fencing (foil, at least, but probably the same in saber and epee) is the simple straight attack timed just right. Kinda hard to evaluate form for a simple straight attack. Everybody gets a "10" when done out of context of another opponent.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

http://www.artisticfencing.com/

-B

No, no and finally, NO.

Silly clothes and pretense != art.

[Valerio Versace]

I don't understand people who try to compare martial arts with fencing, which is a sport. Coaches work to produce stong athletes who can compete with other athletes, with the precise goal of teaching them who to light up their light without allowing their opponents to score. It is very precise, and it could be defined both as an art and a science. Martial arts focus instead on teaching a student how to perform some old school mojo with a smile and a "I hit you, you hit me, but I did it more old-school-mojo style, so I get the win and everyone is happy" attitude. Probably, this kind of tournament martial arts have much more in common with classical fencing than modern sport fencing. I appreciate a lot more boxing, which probably isn't as complex and beautiful as most asian martial arts, but it is much more sport-oriented and competition-friendly.
I don't want to be judged on how good I am in preforming a specific set of movements, beating my opponents in how good I am in that; I want to be judged on how good I am in beating my opponent with a specific goal in mind: the way I do that must be totally up to me.

[bjacobs]

Valerio, those are common complaints. Fortunately...

1. martial arts != asian (though some asian arts, like judo, might have a culture and attitude more to your liking)

2. there's the wonderful in between category of combat sports, like boxing and judo (and arguably fencing as well), which tend to combine the more positive aspects of athletics and fighting while leaving a lot of the nonsense behind.

[Sildar]

Originally Posted by Valerio Versace

Martial arts focus instead on teaching a student how to perform some old school mojo with a smile and a "I hit you, you hit me, but I did it more old-school-mojo style, so I get the win and everyone is happy" attitude.

How is that any different than RoW?

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Sildar

How is that any different than RoW?

Because with RoW, no one is happy.

Oops! Have I been fencing too much epee again?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The "martial" aspect of martial arts has been lost. Its no longer about fighting, its about looking good. I think fencing is more of a martial art, because its a means to an end, and that end is winning. The techniques might not be useable in a real fight, but its more of a fight than TKD, which is basically dancing with bloody noses. I would know, I did it for a while.

[Sildar]

Originally Posted by tbryan

Because with RoW, no one is happy.

Oops! Have I been fencing too much epee again?

Well said, sir, well said.

There's no such thing as too much epee.

[KD5MDK]

220 epeeists is too much epee.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Originally Posted by IanSerotkin

2) What is this mystical third dimension you speak of?
Fencing is pretty much two-dimensional, aside from the occasional jump off the side of the strip. In Taekwondo, you're constantly changing directions, turning around, blocking behind where you were just facing, and kicking towards the attacker coming at you from behind.

The math nerd in me needs to point out that translational movement in fencing is largely one-dimensional (along one line), while in Tae Kwon Do, etc. it is mostly two-dimensional (across a plane). While you can jump and duck, i.e. move in the third dimension, it plays a very small role in either activity.

[FencingKitten]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

20 epeeists is too much epee.

There, fixed that for you

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

The math nerd in me needs to point out that translational movement in fencing is largely one-dimensional (along one line), while in Tae Kwon Do, etc. it is mostly two-dimensional (across a plane). While you can jump and duck, i.e. move in the third dimension, it plays a very small role in either activity.

I disagree; all three are very important. Ask anyone who has had to use different parries based on what line their opponent is attacking in.