South Dakota throws down the gauntlet

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Gav

So a woman crosses state borders, gets an abortion, returns home and is arrested (presumably immediately). Then what? A spell in prison? How is that a good resolution? Surely a woman like this needs counselling and support - not to be treated as a criminal? I am failing to see a good outcome out of a law like this.

Just to be clear--there is no such law now.

At least initially, most criminilizations of abortions focus on the doctor--there is no liability for the pregnant woman. That's what the partial-birth abortion law does, and that's what the South Dakota law does. The intent is to prevent doctors (or others) from doing abortions.

A later law criminalizing crossing state lines may put liability on the woman--but that's conjecture. Also, I think any such law (whether or not the woman has liability) would face a tough fight to be passed--depending on the makeup of Congress and the Presidency at the time.

--Philistine

[Gav]

I know. I am indulging in a bit of conjecture myself.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Gav

So a woman crosses state borders, gets an abortion, returns home and is arrested (presumably immediately). Then what? A spell in prison? How is that a good resolution? Surely a woman like this needs counselling and support - not to be treated as a criminal? I am failing to see a good outcome out of a law like this.

because a law like this would mean that people will stop having premarital sex.

that's also why the HPV vaccine would destroy our society.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

because a law like this would mean that people will stop having premarital sex.

that's also why the HPV vaccine would destroy our society.

I see.

And I know you are being ironic; I agree with you - no it wouldn't.

[needle]

Originally Posted by Gav

So a woman crosses state borders, gets an abortion, returns home and is arrested (presumably immediately). Then what? A spell in prison?

No prison, she will be impregnated again, as a corrective measure, by court-appointed professional.

[jBirch]

And another grenade launched into the fray...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...0228.wabor0228

James.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Philistine

No, it's the Commerce Clause that is being used to prevent partial-birth abortions.

I thought SCOTUS had just granted a cert writ for that case. Surely they haven't already decided that it violates the commerce clause?

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Gav

So a woman crosses state borders, gets an abortion, returns home and is arrested (presumably immediately). Then what? A spell in prison? How is that a good resolution? Surely a woman like this needs counselling and support - not to be treated as a criminal? I am failing to see a good outcome out of a law like this.

The outcome of such a law will no doubt return us to the days of 'coat-hanger' abortions and those who can afford it taking trips to other countries for a safer remedy.

The abortion rate has been falling steadily in the U.S. for decades now. Not satisfied with this, the same right that seeks to ban abortion also champions abstinence only education which has shown to have disasterous effects on teenage pregnancy, which has also been decreasingly at what, apparently, is an alarming rate for the fundies. After all, if teens aren't havin' babies, whose going to listen to their holier-than-thou tripe?

I'm just wondering how they sleep at night. With their fanatical support of Pope Bush, the fundies are essentially responsible for his actions as "Commandant-in-Chief"©. As a result, over 20,000 Iraqi civilians have died. Even using this highly conservative estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths, over 8,000,000 potential humans (by the religious rights definition) have been aborted in the interests of freeing Iraq from the reigns of a brutal dictator. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to scrub our souls clean of the port stain that grows each hour...

[Inquartata]

( peering within )

No, mine still looks all clean and sparkly white on that score...

I've noticed this tendency for "your" opinions and conclussions to be presented "ours" in your writings, Ess. Why is that?

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I thought SCOTUS had just granted a cert writ for that case. Surely they haven't already decided that it violates the commerce clause?

No--the law prevents partial-birth abortions. Congress's ostensible basis for the power to regulate abortion was the Commerce Clause.

--Philistine

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by esskreemr

And its teen suicide rate remains the 3rd highest in the nation (as of 2001):

Quote:
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/sp...cidefolo.shtml

Alaska 39.39 suicides per 100,000 residents aged 15-24
New Mexico 19.06
South Dakota 18.81
Idaho 18.29
Wyoming 17.68
Arizona 15.72
Montana 14.81
Maine 14.74
Colorado 14.74
Nevada 14.11
Kansas 13.73
Utah 13.73
Vermont 13.47

Two things stick out with this list:

1. Alaska really sticks out in a wrong way. What is the problem up there?
2. The suicide top list lists - to me - surprisingly many states which voted republican last vote. Is this just coincidence, or is there some link?

Oh, what is the national average? What does the bottom of this list look like? What are comparable stats for other countries with dependable stats and reasonably similar economic levels?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

1. Alaska really sticks out in a wrong way. What is the problem up there?

i would imagine that it's the lack of sun.....


there's a study on the wall of the math floor at Smith that says that there's a huge correlation between listening to country music and suicide.........

[keith]

Who'd want to be a veterinarian who lives in Alaska and likes country music.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by keith

Who'd want to be a veterinarian who lives in Alaska and likes country music.

where did the veterinarians come from???


personally i think i should be an abortionist in Alaska in a country music band.




or maybe NO.

[keith]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

where did the veterinarians come from???

... another suicide predictor.

Having enough barbiturates to kill a horse just lying around probably helps a bit.

[PiratePeter]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!



Two things stick out with this list:

1. Alaska really sticks out in a wrong way. What is the problem up there?
2. The suicide top list lists - to me - surprisingly many states which voted republican last vote. Is this just coincidence, or is there some link?


Peter Gustafsson

depression sets in after having to live hard lives of manual labor. I think that's why blue collars vote conservative, since they don't feel like having their hard earned money be spent by liberals in the city on their "public works" projects.

lol ... actually, i know that's it. after working on a farm for 4 summers, i kinda wanted to stop paying taxes.

[Inquartata]

Don't we all, don't we all...

However, it's proverbial that union memberships vote Democratic, Can't get much more blue collar than longshoreman, steelworkers and the like. I'll grant you that teachers and civil servants are not blue collar, but they do have a vested interest in seeing government grow and budgets increase. Traditionally very Democratic concepts.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Two things stick out with this list:

1. Alaska really sticks out in a wrong way. What is the problem up there?
2. The suicide top list lists - to me - surprisingly many states which voted republican last vote. Is this just coincidence, or is there some link?

Oh, what is the national average? What does the bottom of this list look like? What are comparable stats for other countries with dependable stats and reasonably similar economic levels?

One thing about the stats--they are not "teen" sucides--it's 15-24, which includes as many non-teens as teens.

For all suicides by State and Region--see CDC Report on Regional Variations in Suicide Rates

It's a little out of date (data is 1990-94). But it shows regional variations that don't necessarily correlate with Red/Blue states--e.g. Western Region has a high suicide rate, including California's, which is higher than many Red States.

There is some discussion of possible reasons, but in the end they kind of punt.

Map by State:


And Peter, aren't you the one who usually complains about thread drift.....


--Philistine

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by Gav

So a woman crosses state borders, gets an abortion, returns home and is arrested (presumably immediately). Then what? A spell in prison? How is that a good resolution? Surely a woman like this needs counselling and support - not to be treated as a criminal? I am failing to see a good outcome out of a law like this.

Gav,

As you stated later....that is a little bit of conjecture.

Most folks outside of the USA don't fully realize the difference among the states.....they see a large monolithic country. State laws vary one's experience within the USA a lot.

Off the top of my head, state laws vary about:
- Marriage, you can get married at 14 years old in some states.
- Inheritance and probate laws.
- Taxes, almost none to almost everything.
- Firearms laws and regulation, from almost none to...well, almost none allowed.
- Gambling and postitution, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
- Driving Licenses and Regulations, want a license at 14 years old?
- Adoption, as an adoptive parent I could write a book on various state laws.
- Criminal/Civil laws and court organiztion, varies dramatically state-to-state.
- Many more.......

Forty-nine states are organized under British Common Law, Louisiana is organized under the Napolionic Code.

In general, the states offer reciprocity on just about everything. You can get married at 14 in Kentucky, and other states (who's laws may differ) will recognize the marriage.

If abortion was allowed to be decided on a state-by-state basis, what is legal within one state cannot be prosecuted in another. For instatnce, you can go to a house of ill repute in Nevada, but when you go home to Iowa you will not be prosecuted even though it is illegal in Iowa.

But, oddly, if you live in California, and buy an automobile in a state with no sales tax -- California will tax you when you register the vehicle.

Money seems to bend certain generalities.

Regards,
Feltan

[grotto]

We have seen this sort of thing in the states before. Hey Inq. remember the good ole days of speak easy's? The right thinking moral "majority" decided we needed to dry out. So no alcohol, which did nothing other than drive a lucrative business underground where the Mafia, and bootleggers and other "privateers" supplied the booze for the roaring 20's. many murder