What grips are legal for foil and epee?

[Dunar]

I have been wanting to get an Italian grip foil for some time but I have heard that it is illegal for competition from some other fencers I know and from serveral websites. I have also heard that it is legal from others. Does anyone know What this grip's status is and what other grips are not allowed?

[OROD]

Italian grips are fine. So are Spanish grips, French, all the orthopedic ones... What's illegal are overly long grips (i.e. thumb too far from bellguard) and grips using "special" devices like wrist straps or anything that secures the grip to the hand, stuff like that.


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[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by OROD

Italian grips are fine. So are Spanish grips, French, all the orthopedic ones... What's illegal are overly long grips (i.e. thumb too far from bellguard) and grips using "special" devices like wrist straps or anything that secures the grip to the hand, stuff like that.


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Basically a grip is illegal if it allows the hand to be fixed in more than one position...the Gardere is the classic example (Barry Paul would tell you otherwise....but in the US it's illegal), but as Donald Clinton will tell you, you can;t ban a grip by the name....you m,ust do it by the properties of the grip.

The Italian is perfectly legal....but it doesn't really lend itself to the modern foil game. Neither does the French...although it's still workable in epee..

[Dunar]

The Italian is perfectly legal....but it doesn't really lend itself to the modern foil game. Neither does the French...although it's still workable in epee..[/quote]

I know that the pistol is better in modern foil (which is why I only use that now) but I still like the feel of the Italian and I could use it in some less competative situations.

[KD5MDK]

The proper answer is show it to me and I'll tell you.

[keropie]

Well, if you're using it for training, you should use whatever you'll compete with. If you're not training or competing (i.e., giving a lesson maybe?) who cares if it's legal or not? Though the Italian is fine, as is French, as they do not have any extensions that officially fix the hand in a position (i.e., they don't seem to count as orthopedic grips). Orthopedic grips are only legal if they fix the hand in one position and that position is within 2 cm of the guard (the thumb, that is).

[Morion]

Originally Posted by OROD

Italian grips are fine. So are Spanish grips, French, all the orthopedic ones... What's illegal are overly long grips (i.e. thumb too far from bellguard) and grips using "special" devices like wrist straps or anything that secures the grip to the hand, stuff like that.
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I thought Spanish Grips were illegal.

[seak]

Originally Posted by Morion

I thought Spanish Grips were illegal.

I am pretty sure there is a thread on that somewhere but I dont have time to go find it now.

The long and short of it is that opinion seems to be relativly evenly divided and depending on who your FOC referee is it may or may not be illegal

[SJCFU#2]

It can also depend on which "Spanish grip" you are referring to (traditional? offset?).

Names can be changed and different manufacturers sometimes use the same name for completely different grips. The characteristics of an individual grip determine whether or not it is legal, not its name.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Morion

I thought Spanish Grips were illegal.

I think that...
The "Spanish grip" that is a pistol grip with a French-style pommel is illegal.

The type that's just a variant of a normal pistol is not.

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by OROD

Italian grips are fine. So are Spanish grips, French, all the orthopedic ones... What's illegal are overly long grips (i.e. thumb too far from bellguard) and grips using "special" devices like wrist straps or anything that secures the grip to the hand, stuff like that.


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Not correct actually. The Italian (Nadi-style) Grip is perfectly legal WITH a wrist strap. In fact its almost impossible to fence well at all without it due to its balance.

I fence with it for fun sometimes. Won a DE last year at a NAC with it. Generally I fence with visconti or belgian....whichever my hand seems to favor that moment

FatZorro

[schlager7]

The design of most Italian grips make them legal for competition so long as their size relative to the size of your hand does not keep your thumb too far from the bell guard.

There are some older Italian grips that turn up which would not be legal for competition because the quillons (crossbar) extend past the outer edge of the guard. (This is the same rules application which states it is illegal for the socket to extend beyound the outer edge of the guard). Of course, all such Italian grips that I've seen with this problem were on dry weapons, so there was never an issue.

I own (for fun) two weapons with different Spanish grips. One is the classical Spanish grip. This is essentially a French grip with two assymetric crossbars extending out. If you hold it like a French, one bar nests in the web between the thumb and index finger, the other between the ring and middle fingers. It truly works like a cross between a French and Italian. Because it has these "special devices" which fix the hand in one position, but also can be posted like a French, it can not be used for USFA-sanctioned competitions.

I also have a weapon with an orthopedic Spanish (sometimes called a Spanish offset). It is little more than a contoured, ortho-looking version of the classic. Instead of thin crossbar protrusions, it has curves of aluminum that nest in the same places on the hand as the classical Spanish. While this version has a pommel nut similar to that of a pistol grip, the rear extension of the grip is every bit as long as a French or classical Spanish. Thus this weapon can also fix the hand in one position or be posted. Again, it is not for use in USFA-sanctioned events.

[IanSerotkin]

Here you go.

Originally Posted by Fencing FAQ

Is my grip legal?

Is my ______ handle legal? (Fill in the blank with "Dos Santos," "Guardere," "Spanish Modern," or any other name.) This question is very difficult to answer in that there are just too many variables. Different vendors give the same handle different names and the size of the handle in relation to the size of the fencer's hand also determines if a handle is legal. Yes, a specific handle that is perfectly legal for one fencer might be illegal for someone else.

Many people think that the rules concerning various types of grips are not very clear. The three main reasons for this are: 1, People don't know the rules. 2, The rules are all too frequently ignored. 3, Vendors sell illegal handles. One should be aware that just because some vender sells a handle or just because a referee allows someone to fence with a handle does not make that handle legal. (The complete Rules Book is easily available from http://www.USFencing.org/, the USFA web page.)

If you look in the Rules Book at Article m.4, 6, you will find that the handle with attachments that does not allow the thumb to be 2 cm or less from the guard is illegal for that fencer. (Now you can understand that a handle could be perfectly legal for someone with a very large hand while it would be illegal for someone with a very small hand.) Does your pronged handle allow you to hold it in more than one position (without going into some sort of contortions)? If so, it is illegal. If there are prongs that would allow you to hold it as you would hold a "French" handle with a finger hooked around a prong so that your thumb would be more than 2 cm from the guard, it is illegal.

The use of a strap to assist in holding the weapon has caused some confusion. If one has a legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip), one may use a strap. If one is using a French grip, one may not use a strap. (The applicable rules follow.) The basic concept here is that if one wishes to have a weapon that will allow for longer reach (French handle), one may not have a device (strap) that will give the user added strength.

The main rules that govern grips are:

t.16: With all three weapons, defense must be effected exclusively with the guard and the blade used either separately or together. If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape (e.g. orthopedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he or she wishes and he or she may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout. However, the weapon must not be - either permanently or temporarily, in an open or disguised manner - transformed into a throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt . . .

m.4: 1. The maximum length of the grip in foil and épée is 20 cm, measured between lines B and E, and 18 cm, measured between lines B and D. In saber the maximum length of the grip is 17 cm (see Figures 8, 9 and 13, pp. 86, 89, 94).
2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as the guard. It must be so made that normally it cannot injure either the user or the opponent.
3. All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform to the regulations which have been framed with a view to placing the various types of weapons on the same footing. However, at épée, orthopedic grips, whether metal or not, may not be covered with leather or any material which could hide wires or switches.
4. The grip must not include any device which assists the fencer to use it as a throwing weapon.
5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer by the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden.
6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by schlager7

I also have a weapon with an orthopedic Spanish (sometimes called a Spanish offset). It is little more than a contoured, ortho-looking version of the classic. Instead of thin crossbar protrusions, it has curves of aluminum that nest in the same places on the hand as the classical Spanish. While this version has a pommel nut similar to that of a pistol grip, the rear extension of the grip is every bit as long as a French or classical Spanish. Thus this weapon can also fix the hand in one position or be posted. Again, it is not for use in USFA-sanctioned events.

As far as I know the Spanish (or Spanish Offset) grip is legal.


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