Foil, Epee, Sabre: why?

[Reepicheap]

Newbie question here: I've seen lots of signatures extolling one weapon over the others, but no real explanation of why fencers get their preference.

I'm taking classes with my daughter since September, and the instructor has encouraged her to give epee a try, right after her grandma bought her an electric foil for Christmas (figures!). Other than new hardware, I realized I have no reason to be loyal to foil, and so would like to hear what y'all think on the matter.

Second question: do many fencers do multiple weapons? If so, doesn't that require significantly more practice time? How widespread is multiple weapon use?

thanks!!

[TrainingDummy]

That's a HUGE can of worms. As to what people here fence, Which weapon's best?. I started on foil and have since switched to epee out of personal preference... the "best weapon" is, ultimately, the one (or two, or three) your daughter most enjoys fencing.

[jBirch]

Reepicheap,

The preferences are mostly ideological. In reality, most personalities find a home with one or the other weapons and enjoy sniping at the others.

That said, certain body types and personalities lend themselves better/worse to the tactics of specific weapons. Sabre, for instance, is currently fenced in a highly aggressive, very footwork intensive, athletic style. Fencers that enjoy the deeper levels of the tactical wheel find sabre less then enjoyable. Epee, as a counter, becomes a more precision oriented game, with careful & cautious distance and timing being the hallmark with less aggression and more precision. Sneaky fencers generally find more enjoyment fencing epee then any of the other weapons. Foil is the weapon for those fencers who enjoy the back and forth nature of parry/riposte and the deeper tactical options. Where epee tends to be more focused on the opponent's missteps, foil tends to be more about tricking them and setting them up. Those who really enjoy one weapon tend to find the other two less then fulfilling.

When it comes to body type, fast and aggressive fencers go for sabre (the brass section of the fencing orchastra as it were), tall and lanky go for epee (the strings section) and fast and nimble go for foil (the wind section).

Fencing all three (as I do) is more about substandard competitive performance and high theoretical understanding then in achieving competitive excellence. It's a coach's path. If you want to get good competitive results though, focusing on one weapon is pretty much required.

Keep in mind these are all gross generalisations.

Hope this helps.

James.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by jBirch

*snip*

Sabre, for instance, is currently fenced in a highly aggressive, very footwork intensive, athletic style. Fencers that enjoy the deeper levels of the tactical wheel find sabre less then enjoyable.

*snip*

Keep in mind these are all gross generalisations.

Indeed they are gross generalizations. I enjoy sabre BECAUSE of the deeper levels of the tactical wheel. When was the last time you saw a counter-time action on the second touch of a foil bout? Sabre LIVES in the second-half of the tactical wheel. The deeper levels are there, but just presented different.

[gatorjosh]

i like foil because it is shiny.

[Katman]

I just woke up and I know I haven't travelled in time, but I swear I've read jBirch's post before. Deja vu.

Regarding the OP: Your daughter should be able to figure out which weapon is her favorite. Yes some fencers fence multiple weapons and can be good at both, though when I fence saber or epee they tell me "You look like a foil fencer fencing saber."

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by oso97

Indeed they are gross generalizations. I enjoy sabre BECAUSE of the deeper levels of the tactical wheel. When was the last time you saw a counter-time action on the second touch of a foil bout?

About the same time I saw a counter-parry in sabre. *grin*

When compared to foil and epee, you'd say then that sabre has more or less complicated bladework?

James.

[Redblade]

I strongly suggest ignoring almost all of the baloney we (myself included) espouse here and instead sit down and watch several bouts of the three weapons yourself. Draw your own conclusions. The personal paradigms, metaphors and other descriptors you find on this board probably won't match your own observations. And we have no way of knowing about the personalities of the fencers you have to deal with in your own club, which will prove to be a surprisingly big factor in your choice.

[parrythis]

JBirch sums up the differences between the weapons nicely. If your daughter is fairly new to fencing, it might behoove her to give a try to any of the weapons that interest her for a few months. Once she's had a chance to try them out she should have a better idea of which one(s) she likes.

As to the question of whether do abandon one to do the other, it is not necessary to do so while learning and trying them out. However, if she ever wants to get really good at one of them, she should take the one she likes best and focus on it exclusively.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by oso97

When was the last time you saw a counter-time action on the second touch of a foil bout?

Sunday afternoon.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by oso97

I enjoy sabre BECAUSE of the deeper levels of the tactical wheel.

Running + Yelling ╪ Tactical Anything


.

[rcmatthews]

I saw sabre the first time I went to a fencing class and knew instantly that it is what I wanted to do. I fenced foil for one practice, and then went to sabre. It is hard for me to give advice as to what weapon to pick, because I was so strongly drawn to mine.

Sabre does have deep tactical thinking. It just doesnt occur during the actual phrase of fencing. It happens in the breaks between touches.

I was actually practicing counterparrying last night, though I will admit that the people I was fencing are, shall we say, substandard, so I ws trying to make it interesting for myself by letting myself get parried.

[Dax]

Originally Posted by OROD

Running + Yelling ╪ Tactical Anything


.

That made me giggle.

I am an epee fencer, I just enjoy it. I like the percision and the tactics of it, and the agression you can use. I have recently picked up foil to work on my bladework and as a workout(teehee). I also did it so I can learn some of the finesse moves and infighting stuff, so I can transfer that to epee.

Just let your daughter fence, she'll be able to choose what she enjoys, and let he fence the weapon she likes the most.

[FencingKitten]

I fence sabre. Everyone at my club starts by fencing foil, because we have a ton of practice foils for our beginner fencing PE class. I fenced foil for almost six months, and hit a plateau where I wasn't getting better, wasn't understanding, wasn't making any progress at all, for a variety of reasons that are all my fault.

I switched to sabre, and all those reasons disappeared, because I *like* sabre. It's a rush, for me. I can still fence foil, and I do if someone hands me gear and lets me fence it for free, but I focus on sabre, take lessons in sabre, think about sabre... yeah. It just fits.

[larkmaj]

A good coach should have an eye for what weapon a fencer should be better at. So if your coach tells your daughter that she should try epee then she probably could, he probably sees something in her fencing that would lead him to believe she would be good at it. I think the best advice to take would be from Redblade. Just take a look at the different weapons and see what you like best.

Personally, the rules and strategy of Epee drew me to it. However, I still fence foil fairly regularly and have recently been doing a little sabre. Partly to give myself an added challenge because fencing just the one can get a little boring as there aren't many epees at the club. Partly to try and pick up the different points of those other weapons to help my epee as Dax was saying.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Reepicheap

I'm taking classes with my daughter since September, and the instructor has encouraged her to give epee a try, right after her grandma bought her an electric foil for Christmas (figures!). Other than new hardware, I realized I have no reason to be loyal to foil, and so would like to hear what y'all think on the matter.

Where I fence, the foil group is huge, and everyone starts in foil. Once they've got the basic footwork and some control of the blade, they're allowed to try other weapons. The only time a coach will say, "Hey, go join the epee group tonight," is when a fencer is showing some tendencies in their style that lend themselves very well to epee. I recently saw a fairly new fencer who, in his first epee practice, was already droping counters to the wrist and hitting really nice remises. In foil, those actions wouldn't have right-of-way, and he'd have to work and train hard to kill those reflexes. In epee, they're perfect. Instead of making him fight his natural tendencies, we just encouraged him to focus on the weapon where those tendencies are advantages.

Originally Posted by Reepicheap

Second question: do many fencers do multiple weapons? If so, doesn't that require significantly more practice time? How widespread is multiple weapon use?

I think that most elite fencers and fencers who strive to be elite focus on one weapon. Most fencers who compete seriously and do multiple weapons focus on one weapon over the others. There are just certain reactions and reflexes that you'd like to have in one weapon that are bad ideas in the others. It's good to know when you can just shrug and think, "Oh, well. Not my primary weapon."

I recommend sticking with one weapon at a time at first. It makes things less confusing. Once you're comfortable with each individually, fencing and training both can make sense...especially if you focus on one weapon and do the other "for fun." Really, I hope that she has fun with both, but some fencers start focusing so much on their results in their primary weapon that they find it very refreshing to "play" with another weapon for a while. If you just started in September, a lot of these concerns probably don't apply, yet.

I agree with Redblade, though. Fencing is fun, but especially if you just started, a large part of the "which weapon" question comes down to who you'll be hanging out with at practice and tournaments. Maybe follow the coach's suggestion and just try the other weapon. If the (social) group is comfortable, and the weapon seems more fun, stick with that for a while. If something about the weapon seems boring or not fun or something about the people isn't fun, switch back. If nothing else, it'll give her an appreciation for foil (or a desire to try saber).

[Chafunkta]

I fence foil because I like the fast paced action of it. Also there are long phrases you can get into which makes the weapon exciting. One could argue that sabre is faster than foil, and I don’t think I’d disagree, but few phrases go beyond parry – repost. Epee is too slow for me. Plus, I really don’t like counterattacks. There’s nothing worse than setting up a nice action and finish it off with a nice lunge only to have the opponent prick you in the arm as you lunge in.

Now admittedly, foil is the primary weapon I fence. I haven’t fenced epee or sabre enough to have a fully validated opinion, because I fence them all like I would fence foil (more or less). I’ve tried epee in a couple of tournaments, but only because I wanted to fence longer. Foil is the weapon I’m best at, and that is probably why it’s my favorite.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by jBirch

About the same time I saw a counter-parry in sabre. *grin*

When compared to foil and epee, you'd say then that sabre has more or less complicated bladework?

James.

Contrary to the opinion of people who've not been properly trained in fencing pedagogy, the tactical wheel is NOT defined soley by bladework. Its entirely possible to have an entire series of actions with almost no blade contact, and yet still advance through and around the tactical wheel. Espeically in sabre. Tactics can be executed with the feet too - espeically in the modern, fast paced style of sabre and foil.

Oh, and BTW, a counter-parry is not defined as what you just said. A counter-parry is a parry that moves the defenders blade through a circle to end up in the same position it started. What you are thinking of is a counter-riposte (a riposte following a parry of a riposte).

Okay, so here is an example of a tactical progression in sabre.

First action: Fencers come together, both executing a double advance lunge, except left is doing a full attack and right hesitates a little bit, executing a fast counter-attack. Attack left, touch left.

Second action: Fencers come together, except right is now going to accelerate his attack and do a single advance to his opponents double. Attack right, touch right (attack in preparation)

Third action: Fencers come together, right again takes the two steps and when his opponent accelerates his attack into it, he pauses, parries and ripostes. Riposte left, touch left (counter-time action).

Fourth action: Fencers come together, right again takes the two steps, left accelerates his attack, thinking he's going to do a compound action. Instead of parrying, right pulls distance, left's attack falls short, right's attack starts and hits. Attack from left no, attack from right arrives, touch right. (tactically, right has just executed a parry riposte, i.e. a 'distance parry' despite there being no bladework by making his opponents attack miss).

Fifth action: Same as above, except left now parries rights attack. (tactically, right has just executed a counter-riposte following his opponents 'distance parry').

After this you might either see another counter-time action, or perhaps a fient-in-time (decieving the parry of component of the counter-time action), or perhaps both fencers go for a counter-time action and you end up with neither having priority (what is often called as 'simultanious' but in actuality is really 'two actions, no touch' which is what the higher level referees actually say).

And if you want an example of how this can work in foil, just go watch Bucky Leech's students.

[jBirch]

oso97,

Thanks for the clarification.

James.

[Mr Epee]

I like epee.

It has taught me that people who use many words are usually trying to obscure the truth - not reveal it.