Wrist straps, Martingale, stupid rules

[bbower]

At the collegiate New Englands this weekend I prevented a fencer from using a martingale. I thought that their use was illegal ... apparantly I was mistaken.

T.16 from the 2005 USFA rule book states

If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape
(e.g. orthopaedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he wishes and he
may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout.
However, the weapon must not be — either permanently or
temporarily, in an open or disguised manner — transformed into a
throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt
and without the hand slipping along the hilt from front to back
during an offensive action.

I assumed that the martingale was a leash that had some slack (or elasticity), and was therefore disallowed because it would allow the weapon to slide through the fencers hand during an offensive action, while allowing the fencer to maintain control of the weapon.

So a few questions

1) If a fencer with a martingale and french grip loosely gripped a weapon and you pulled on it, would the grip slide through their fingers at all before stopping due to the martingale?
2) Are there any devices similar to the martingale that would be disallowed based on T.16?
3) Isn't a bodycord illegal according to T.16? (when using a french grip). If I wear a very short body cord with only a couple inches of slack, then I could loosen my grip during a lunge and my weapon would slide through my hand those few inches. There's no chance of it flying out of my hand due to the body cord.

[FencingKitten]

My first instinct is to say that that constitues a special device or attachment, although I'm not sure what I'd do about it. A body cord is not a special device or attachment, but a mandatory regulation one.

And, you need to see more fun bouts - I see a weapon sliding out of hands *regularly* at club and tournaments due to, shall we say, creative fencing

[DHCJr]

Let us first define the differences in a wrist strap and a martingale. A matingale goes around your wrist loosely and connected to the tang. This was in the FIE rule book until 2004 for dry competitions. This would not allow the weapon to be used as a throwing weapon. In Electric competition this function is taken up by the bodycord. The cord stops you from using it as a throwing weapon since it must not be able to be detached from the weapon or the reel by security devices.

A wrist strap, which is illegal using a French is a strap that locks the hand in place and is mostly associated with an Italian handle. With an orthopedic handle straped in you could not change the position of your hand. As long as your thumb is within the required 2cm from the inside of the guard. With the French the handle would be able to be moved after you were straped in because of it's relativity straightness.

[KD5MDK]

It's a tricky question for the following reason, at least to me. The FOC website has the following to say on the same page:

Originally Posted by FOC FAQ

The use of a strap to assist in holding the weapon has caused some confusion. If one has a legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip), one may use a strap. If one is using a French grip, one may not use a strap. (The applicable rules follow.) The basic concept here is that if one wishes to have a weapon that will allow for longer reach (French handle), one may not have a device (strap) that will give the user added strength.

also

Can I use a wrist strap (martingale)?

It is legal to use a wrist strap with any grip, especially an Italian grip, in USFA competition.

One of those needs to be fixed.

[rory]

A martingale is not a wrist strap.

A wrist strap is a large leather strap with a buckle, which goes around your wrist and binds it to the pommel. Its purpose is to provide added strength and leverage, not to prevent you dropping the weapon. It is legal with Italian and other orthapedic grips, but is illegal with the French grip.

A martingale is a smaller loop of material which is attached at the guard end of the tang, right beside where the socket is attached. The loop is then placed around the third finger of the weapon hand, and runs "inside" the other fingers as they wrap around the grip. The purpose of the martingale is to prevent you dropping a French weapon when faced with a strong beat. It doesn't provide any extra leverage or strength advantage at all.
Martingales are legal with a French grip.

There's a page here http://www.ahfi.org/rules/epee.php that backs me up, but the main reason I know this is that when I was taught to fence originally, we learnt using French handled foils with martingales, and were only allowed to use a pistol grip after a couple of years.

[DHCJr]

KD5MDK. I would check with Bill Oliver at the Fencing Officials web site. The second one should obviously be "Can I use a martingale?" I think it is written the way it is because most people do not know the difference. A martingale is a sort of wrist strap in that it is a strap that goes around the wrist.

It is like a Square is always a Rectangle, but a Rectangle is not always a square. It is possible that Bill was anwering about a specific type of wrist strap, a martingale. If that were so, then both of your quotes are true.

I believe Leon Paul still sells a martingale.

[schlager7]

From my chapter on 1973 in my "Campeche Steel" project

These were also changing times for the Amateur Fencers League of America. The AFLA, which now consisted of 56 divisions grouped into 8 sections, found itself dealing with many of the same pressures as the nation at large.

Up to this point in history, fencing in America (and much of the world) consisted of three weapons for men (foil, epee and sabre), but only one "approved" weapon for women (foil). It was also the norm to have segregated events. Men fenced men and women fenced women. The early seventies, however, saw the expansion of advocates of "mixed" competitions, where fencers of either gender could fence. Some considered this virtual repudiation of chivalry and a concept that spelled disaster for women. Others saw it as one more wall to be brought down by the changes occurring in the 1960s and 1970s.

The AFLA put the question of mixed competitions to a mail vote by its entire board of directors. Out of 100 board members, only 27 responded: 16 for mixed events and 11 against. The "ayes" had it.

This was also the last era of the martingale. AFLA rules of the day specifically required a martingale for "dry," or non-electric, foils and epees. The martingale was, simply put, a loop of leather that was anchored between the grip and the cushion. It was long enough that a fencer could slide his fingers into the loop while still holding the weapon correctly. If his blade received a strong beat from his opponent and he lost his grip, the martingale would keep it from flying off.

Martingales were not used with electric weapons, since the attachment of the body cord to the socket was deemed enough to serve the same function. The absence of martingales in these weapons, however, apparently served as precursor to their disappearance from foils and epees in general.

Just FYI, I have a number of dry French grip foils with martingales and dry Italian grip foils with wristraps. Rory is correct.

(I also have antique and modern lunette guards on some foils. The modern ones are cast by my wife from molds made from the antiques.)

[rory]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

A martingale is a sort of wrist strap in that it is a strap that goes around the wrist.
...
I believe Leon Paul still sells a martingale.

A martingale does not go around the wrist. It goes around one or two of your fingers. And yes, LP do still sell them, for about £1.50 for 10.

Everybody repeat after me: a martingale is not a wrist strap.

[schlager7]

Oh, I'm with you, Rory. Some leather workers took some scrap and cut me about dozen or more martingales.

Actually, I use them. I sometime teach an intro foil class at the local community college's continuing ed program. A lot of grown-up, getting to fence for the first time alternate between too tight and too loose a grip. In the latter, a crisp lateral parry or beat can send the foil flying.

I went retro and employed the martingales for their origninal use. They serve us very well.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by bbower

At the collegiate New Englands this weekend I prevented a fencer from using a martingale. I thought that their use was illegal ... apparantly I was mistaken.

A martingale is legal with a French grip; a wrist strap is not. Others in this thread have discussed the differences between them. I don't think it's particularly significant -- as far as the rules are concerned -- whether the martingale is looped around the wrist, rather than around one or more fingers. I find it hard to imagine a martingale being looped tightly enough around the wrist to provide the kind of support that a wrist strap provides, though I suppose if that were possible, such an arrangement would cause the martingale to be reclassed as a wrist strap in that case.

T.16 from the 2005 USFA rule book states

If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape
(e.g. orthopaedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he wishes and he
may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout.
However, the weapon must not be — either permanently or
temporarily, in an open or disguised manner — transformed into a
throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt
and without the hand slipping along the hilt from front to back
during an offensive action.

I assumed that the martingale was a leash that had some slack (or elasticity), and was therefore disallowed because it would allow the weapon to slide through the fencers hand during an offensive action, while allowing the fencer to maintain control of the weapon.

A body cord normally allows about the same amount of slack as a martingale, and thus both a martingale and a body cord could allow such an action. But they do not assist in the action. It's the action itself that is forbidden, not the martingale, which at least limits the possible projection of the weapon.

Dirk

[bbower]

Originally Posted by rory

A martingale is not a wrist strap.

A wrist strap is a large leather strap with a buckle, which goes around your wrist and binds it to the pommel. Its purpose is to provide added strength and leverage, not to prevent you dropping the weapon. It is legal with Italian and other orthapedic grips, but is illegal with the French grip.

A martingale is a smaller loop of material which is attached at the guard end of the tang, right beside where the socket is attached. The loop is then placed around the third finger of the weapon hand, and runs "inside" the other fingers as they wrap around the grip. The purpose of the martingale is to prevent you dropping a French weapon when faced with a strong beat. It doesn't provide any extra leverage or strength advantage at all.
Martingales are legal with a French grip.

There's a page here http://www.ahfi.org/rules/epee.php that backs me up, but the main reason I know this is that when I was taught to fence originally, we learnt using French handled foils with martingales, and were only allowed to use a pistol grip after a couple of years.

Thank you. This is very clear.

[wbowman]

If it helps in remembering the difference between a wrist strap and a martingale, think of this--
A martingale is also a strap between a horse's bridle and the saddle girth which serves to keep the horse from throwing its head back.
So the basic idea is that it's a strap which has a certain amount of slack, but prevents motion (tossing of the head/falling of the blade) beyond a certain point.

[bbower]

So am I correct in assuming that m.4.6 is the actual rule that prohibits wrist straps with French grips?



m.4.6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or

has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position

of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the

following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the

hand on the grip.


So my understanding is:

The wrist strap is a device on the glove which which fixes the position of the hand on the grip. Therefore according to (a), it must be used with a grip which fixes only one position for the hand on the grip. A Fench grip doesn't meet this criteria. Therefore wrist straps cannot be used with French grips.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Now the question becomes... who has tried using a Martingale in competition? I'd imagine it would give you all the strength of a pistol grip with all the control of the French. I don't have any on my foils, but I've got one on my epee (I know folks who even use them on sabres). The last time I was at PC changing my epee blade, the folks there seemed intrigued by the concept.

Chris

[DHCJr]

I stand corrected. Christopher, a Martingale does not give you the strength of a pistol grip. That would be the wrist strap. What the Martingale does is when you loose control of the foil, it can not fly.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Not sure I agree. It adds a LOT of power to binds and the like.

Chris

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

Now the question becomes... who has tried using a Martingale in competition? I'd imagine it would give you all the strength of a pistol grip with all the control of the French. I don't have any on my foils, but I've got one on my epee (I know folks who even use them on sabres). The last time I was at PC changing my epee blade, the folks there seemed intrigued by the concept.

Chris

Back when I was a lad I used a french foil with a martingale. I have to say that I didn't notice any power or control improvements. In fact I have to say that the Ortho grip was far superior in the power stakes. (For obvious reasons) Your hand rests in a more comfortable position with an ortho grip and adding a leather tag to a french doesn't change that. Its big advantage is that it stops you from being disarmed as easily. Because most of the French grip users I know today are Epeeists, who like to be able to adjust their reach, no one bothers with a martingale. I suppose the feeling is that it becomes superfluous, or makes it too obvious, when you've moved your hand.

Final note: There is a french grip foilist in Scotland (he's not bad - just old) who I believe uses a martingale. Next time I see him I'll ask. I had been a while since I used a french foil so my recollections may be a bit hazy.

[Christopher J Umbs]

I'm starting to get the feeling that folks may be using them differently (maybe even using ones of different size). With mine, I can put either just the index or the index and middle fingers through the loop (so I can still adjust the reach). If I hold the blade as far back on the grip as I can while still using the martingale, I'm able to squeeze on the loop for extra strength ("I've used it to disarm folks using Italian blades with wristraps by just popping the snap open). It also helps with coupes and, I'd imagine, flicks. I guess it's just one of those things that has to be shown, but it's definitely more than just securing the blade against a disarm.

Chris

[Gav]

Chris,

I know a few French using Epeeists that can knock a pistol grip out of your hand if they choose... You can get strong, and yes powerful, use out of a French grip without the need for a martingale. I am not saying don't use one; just that you probably don't get much benefit out of its use - in my experience. Better to have good technique, strength in the right muscle areas and a bit of experience. Veeco uses a french grip - I wonder what his thoughts are?

[RITFencing]

On the subject of martingales and wrist straps, a friend of mine has tendonitis issues and he and I have talked about using one to relieve some of the strain. Does anyone know if it takes some of the stress off of the fingers (and the forearm muscles that control them)?