Possible to swap french grip and pistol grip on same blade?

[oneiromancer]

Hi there,

I'm going to be purchasing my first foil soon, and while I'd like to try pistol grip, my instructor says I should stick to a french grip. With foil blades, is the tang length different for french grips compared to pistol grips? Could I buy a french grip foil with a pistol grip and nut on the side and swap them out when I wanted to, or would I have to purchase 2 different foils? Thanks for the info!

[keropie]

When you buy it, you (usually) specify french or pistol cut/tang. The french tang is longer, so if you start with that, when you're ready to switch, you can cut it down and go to pistol. Once it's pistol, though, it's difficult to switch back (you'd have to somehow weld some tang back on).

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by oneiromancer

Hi there,

I'm going to be purchasing my first foil soon, and while I'd like to try pistol grip, my instructor says I should stick to a french grip. With foil blades, is the tang length different for french grips compared to pistol grips? Could I buy a french grip foil with a pistol grip and nut on the side and swap them out when I wanted to, or would I have to purchase 2 different foils? Thanks for the info!

Nope...can't swap...the tangs are VERY different in length. You can change from a french to a pistol easily enough....just a matter f cutting the tang so it fits within the pistol grip, but you can't go the other way around.

The tang on a new blade that's French length is about 20+ cm...a pisto0l tang will vary, but probably be around 10cm on the average (depending on the grip and the size).

Go with the French for now until you get your finger control down...The French promotes that. You can go to a pistol later, after you;ve got some control. If you start with a pistol, you may develop some really bad habits likea gynormous sweeping parry action that can be easily deceived.

[CvilleFencer]

Actually you can swap back and forth, but only if you like the Leon Paul Carbon Fiber French Grips. They are light and thick and the best thing about them is that they can be used on blades cut for pistol length tangs. They sell them through the Fencing.net store and through Leon Paul USA.

If you want to be able to go back and forth they are your only real option, but be forwarned that these are primarily for epee fencers looking to pommel. They balance is a bit different than a normal French grip but if you are fairly new chances are it will not make much of a difference to you. French grips suck by the way. There is a reason you will never see a decent competitive foilist born after the 1960's using one...

I never bought the French = finger control and pistol = death grip and conan parries argument. I have scene a lot of students come through my club that hold their French like and axe or "like a real sword" as they think of it and no matter how many times you show them the correct way they go back to the thug style grip. Put a nice pistol grip in their hand and all is right with the world. Or at least as right as it ever is with beginners and the size of their bladework.

[Epee Scherma]

[quote=CvilleFencer]... There is a reason you will never see a decent competitive foilist born after the 1960's using one...QUOTE]

Most definately agreed except for the fact that I have one exception to the above. I know a man who uses french and was A rated, and had national points sometime in the 80's. He still fences french and is B now. Lemme tell you he is something else to fence or watch! David Comas.


Other than him, most definately there is no one half way decent who uses a french that I can think of.

[stealingophelia]

I have a french grip that i never use, and i've come to like it, not enough to switch, but it's not bad. You definatly do have more point control with your fingers.

[KD5MDK]

[quote=Epee Scherma]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

... There is a reason you will never see a decent competitive foilist born after the 1960's using one...QUOTE]

Most definately agreed except for the fact that I have one exception to the above. I know a man who uses french and was A rated, and had national points sometime in the 80's. He still fences french and is B now. Lemme tell you he is something else to fence or watch! David Comas.


Other than him, most definately there is no one half way decent who uses a french that I can think of.

If he had National Points in the 1980s, the odds are he was born sometime before 1970.

[Epee Scherma]

True. Guess my reading comprehension was poor last night.

It's too bad someone doesn't invent a FRENCH pommel/handle with an extender so I could french fit my pistol tang epees. I know teh carbon fibre is out there, but itd be better if it could work with a french for some people.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

True. Guess my reading comprehension was poor last night.

It's too bad someone doesn't invent a FRENCH pommel/handle with an extender so I could french fit my pistol tang epees. I know teh carbon fibre is out there, but itd be better if it could work with a french for some people.

It would not be hard to do, it just would not be a item that was enough in demand to justify tooling it up for production. However if you have access to some decent metal working tools what you would do is mill out a metal French grip handle (which you would then cover with leather, rubber, skate or racket/baseball grip tape). Then you just drill about a 8mm tang slot all the way through it and on the back end you re-drill the last 3-4 inchs of the grip with a 10-12mm bit.

The pommel itself gets a little more tricky. You could either use a standard 6mm screw on pommel or custom make your own. If you used a standard you would just take a peice of cut tang from an old blade, clean up both ends and screw one end into the pommel. You now have a few inchs of tang sticking out of the pommel and a few inches of tang on the sword. Use a 6mm coupling nut to join the two together and just tighten up to suit. You would have to play with it a bit to get everything fitting tightly, but this is the best way for the home craftsman with a limited set of tools to do it since all you really need is a drill and some bits.

The more production/resale oriented way would be to make a pommel that instead of being threaded through the center it would have a long (3-4 inchs) 6mm coupling nut coming out of the end of it that goes into the grip. Then you just screw it on.

The catch with all of this is that once a blade is cut for a pistol grip it is not a uniform size. Some grips need the tang fair short (small visconti) and some need the tang to be very long (Russian). As such I don't think you will ever have a vendor make something like this as there will always be blades it will not work well with since you have no uniform size. However if you make it yourself you can regulate how you cut the tangs on all your weapons and have it readily transferable between the two so it is a much better solution for the dedicated to it yourselfer than for a vendor to monkey around trying to market.

[ChrisBrasel]

or just get an outside nut?

[oneiromancer]

Wow, I looked into the carbon fiber handles and they are HUGE! I think that'd take some serious getting used to, plus they're hideously expensive compared to even the most pro-level handles.

I did, however, like your idea on custom making a pommel, Cville. I think buying a french-style blade, cutting the tang down to crosse length, and then soldering the bit that was removed into the pommel and soldering a coupling nut on the other end would be quite effective. It'd allow me to put on the french handle to work on finger strength and tip control, and put on the pistol grip for better power and maybe a more comfortable grip. Thanks very much for the neat ideas and advice Now I just gotta figure out which pistol grip I'd like to get...so many choices!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by ChrisBrasel

or just get an outside nut?

I don't get it? You could use any nut as a substitute pommel on a French but you can't effectively use a French tang with a pistol as you can not hold it in the proper position and would end up stabbing yourself in the gut or the wrist with it if you tried. Maybe I just don't understand, if so please explain. I sometimes get to in love with complicated but clever/cool solutions and miss the easy ones...

[Craig]

Originally Posted by oneiromancer

Wow, I looked into the carbon fiber handles and they are HUGE! I think that'd take some serious getting used to, plus they're hideously expensive compared to even the most pro-level handles.

I did, however, like your idea on custom making a pommel, Cville. I think buying a french-style blade, cutting the tang down to crosse length, and then soldering the bit that was removed into the pommel and soldering a coupling nut on the other end would be quite effective. It'd allow me to put on the french handle to work on finger strength and tip control, and put on the pistol grip for better power and maybe a more comfortable grip. Thanks very much for the neat ideas and advice Now I just gotta figure out which pistol grip I'd like to get...so many choices!

I would suggest just picking one type of grip and practice with it. If you want to work on finger strength, get a stress ball or something and use it as an excercise tool.

Practicing point control with a french grip is not going to translate on a 1:1 basis to how you handle a pistol grip, especially once your hand starts to fatigue. Better to practice with the pistol grip if you're going to fence with one, that way you are training the correct muscle memories.

Craig

[Epee Scherma]

Anyways, here is a picture of my solution, a mix of ChrisBrasels', Cville's, and my own.

Its a french handle with a metal cast, rubber on the outside like standard. It might have to be tad larger than the norm perhaps to fit the outside hex in. So you put the french handle on over the pistol cut tang. Then you take an outside hex (preferably the longer the better) and basically secure the french on like you would a pistol.

To secure the pommel... Hoping that you have still length in this outside hex nut, you can take a tang from a broken weapon and use it as an extender, out the other end of the outside hex. So then you can screw the pommel on! Tada!

There is only a couple problems with this, that could be resolved:
1. The french handle needs to be large enough to fit the outside hex nut in.
2. The outside hex nut needs to be long enough to secure the handle + hold a good amount of the "extender" tang.

Why go through all this effort? Well, if you own four epees with pistol handles and realize that you should have gone french, than you've just wasted a lot of money. This is a cheap solution. Now to find someone willing to try and engineer my idea! Do you think its worth a patent? haha.

[ChrisBrasel]

Is the tang still cut for a french or a pistol?

Cville, I meant use a out side nut to screw the pistol on. Maybe I dont know what im talking about.

Anyway off to practice.

[Epee Scherma]

The tang is cut for pistol. Screw on an outside hex to secure it. But make sure its long enough to not be completely filled by the tang. Then, go and get the tang from a broken blade, and screw it into whats left of the space of the outside hex. It's basically serving as a tang extender. The only modification necessary would be a french handle that can fit an outside hex inside it.

[Purple Fencer]

Wouldn't that be more prone to coming loose?? You've got 2 more points of contact inside the grip (pistol tang to coupling nut....coupling nut to extender) that can come loose, with no way to really crank them tight, or a lock washer to help hold them. If they come loose, you've have acircuit break at the socket/guard connection.

Nice idea, but from an armory standpoint, best to go with a one-piece tang, regardless of the length.

[CvilleFencer]

Doooh. Okay, it took this incredibly simple idea a while to click with me. You take your pistol grip made from metal and prep it exactly like a said above. Now you can use a pistol grip length tang on the french grip you have just made and just secure it with an outside hex bolt. But what about a pommel you say? Thread the pommel and the outside last 1/4" of the pistol grip so that the pommel screws onto the end of the grip instead of onto the tang.

Now you only have one point of contact so it is more reliable, it works easy with pistol or French, balances pretty close to normal and it looks completely stock so as not to make a ref or armourer nervious. I really should have though of that earlier...

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I don't get it? You could use any nut as a substitute pommel on a French but you can't effectively use a French tang with a pistol as you can not hold it in the proper position and would end up stabbing yourself in the gut or the wrist with it if you tried. Maybe I just don't understand, if so please explain. I sometimes get to in love with complicated but clever/cool solutions and miss the easy ones...

What I think ChrisBrasel was talking about is when you use an outside hex pommel, you don't have to cut the tang to fit the handle. When I was the Armorer for the Long Beach State team, all pistol grip tangs were the same length, even though we had many different types of handles and sizes. The key was the outside hex pommels.

[yeoldearmourer]

Excuse me my wife who made the Vet. World team in women foil use a french grip foil. While most of the women she fecne used a pistol.