Cheney shoots trial lawyer who 'gets in his way'.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

Speaking of which....
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...audi_Gore.html

http://www.investors.com/editorial/I...issue=20060213

Although bonehead would not be the word I'd use.

Wow! I'm almost willing to give you rep cards for not bringing up President Clinton...

1) Your links have absolutely no relevance to this argument. You should have went hunting with Cheney 'cause the blanks you're firing wouldn't have hurt anybody...

2) At what point did speaking up against American politicians become 'unAmerican'? I understand that Republicans wish for the good ole days of the monarchy, but fortunately, we don't live in Iran, Cuba, Iraq, or other countries with no protection for free speech. If you consider criticism to be anti-American or offensive, feel free to move to whatever country has the despotic regime that you crave soooo much.

14 hours. Thats how long they waited before notifying the press. It was a hunting accident. They took the guy to get medical treatment first. Sheesh! Its not like driving off a bridge into the river and leaving your helpless passenger in the car.

Why did the SS turn the sheriffs away? Could there have been a little drinkie drinkie involved?

I'd say its done an effective job of drawing headlines away from the creator of the internet. hmmmm...

Now you're bringing up J.C.R. Licklider? Or was it Leonard Kleinrock? Hmmm... Lawrence Roberts had a hand in it too... Focus on the topic at hand man! Geesh, I feel like I'm on a Cheney quail hunt with you firing shots all over the place...

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

As a shooter, sure. One of the cardinal rules of shooting is that you never fire until you are sure of your target, and know what's beside it and beyond it.

But I don't see how it extends to his general "competence and judgement". If it did, we are lucky we didn't get Kerry as President...remember the photos of him hunting pheasant with his finger on the trigger of an unaimed shotgun? That's another cardinal rule of shooting, you know: keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire...

No actually I don't Inq... any chance you could find those?

I'm not sure that slip on his part meant that he couldn't be trusted with foreign policy.

Did Kerry shoot anybody on that trip?

It wasn't "kept", it was merely "didn't immediately shout 'Alert the media!' and go dashing off to hold a press conference". Failing to announce something is not the same as actively trying to suppress it.

Why were the Sheriffs initially turned away by the SS when they arrived at the ranch? Was a certain high ranking American politician with a history of DUI arrests trying to 'clean the tanks'? Accidentally shooting a fellow hunter without fatality is not a crime in Texas. Hunting while tanked, however, most likely is. The owner of the ranch was originally quoted as saying that beer was involved. That has been scrubbed from most stories. Interesting note, they were hunting from a car... great sportmanship that...

You see, Jeff, once upon a time it was the job of journalists to go out and find news...to dig and investigate and tease out stories, rather than sit in a nest like baby birds impatiently waiting for their mother to bring them some worms, and chirping raucously in irritation when she was late. I guess those days are gone...

Please, this would most likely be the non-story it should be if it wasn't for the Bush Admin's instinctive urge to duck, cover, and deny.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Did Kerry shoot anybody on that trip?

Different cardinal rule, different standard.

Why were the Sheriffs initially turned away by the SS when they arrived at the ranch?

Because the Secret Service was in lockdown mode, most likely.

Was a certain high ranking American politician with a history of DUI arrests trying to 'clean the tanks'?

Is a certain senior fencing.net "leftie" pulling wild speculations out of his a**?

Accidentally shooting a fellow hunter without fatality is not a crime in Texas. Hunting while tanked, however, most likely is.

On private property? Nah.

Interesting note, they were hunting from a car... great sportmanship that...

But common practice. And it's birds, sportsmanship as you are using the word has nothing much to do with it.

Please, this would most likely be the non-story it should be if it wasn't for the Bush Admin's instinctive urge to duck, cover, and deny.

Balderdash. If they'd rushed to announce it you'd be pillorying them for boasting about their bloodthirstiness or something. And the comics are having a field day ( ) with it because of the event itself, not because of a "cover-up". It's the shooting that makes us shake our heads, not the fact that some lazy reporters were vexed by the tardiness of a press release on it.

[Louweasel]

I feel sorry for the poor man who was shot and hope he recovers fully, but on the other hand, what a fantastic after-dinner anecdote that is!
"So, how did you gert that scar?"
"Oh, I've got loads of these. I was shot by Dick Cheney!"

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

As a shooter, sure. One of the cardinal rules of shooting is that you never fire until you are sure of your target, and know what's beside it and beyond it.

I absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But I don't see how it extends to his general "competence and judgement". If it did, we are lucky we didn't get Kerry as President...remember the photos of him hunting pheasant with his finger on the trigger of an unaimed shotgun? That's another cardinal rule of shooting, you know: keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire...

As ess said, it would have definitely been newsworthy if Kerry shot someone. Do you claim it wouldn't have been? Sauce for either goose or gander. I've already mentioned how this reflects on judgement.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I'm not sure that slip on his part meant that he couldn't be trusted with foreign policy.

Accidentally shooting someone (I make no assumption of being under the influence, which would change things completely) by itself wouldn't tell me he couldn't be trusted with policy either, so we're even on that (there is ample evidence elsewhere that he can't be trusted with foreign policy....) Ham-fisted crisis management of something that needn't have been a crisis - well, that tells me he shouldn't be in charge of anything that might have consequences.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

IIt wasn't "kept", it was merely "didn't immediately shout 'Alert the media!' and go dashing off to hold a press conference". Failing to announce something is not the same as actively trying to suppress it.

Passing off the event to the ranch owner long after the occurrence was at least passively trying to suppress it. Falling into usual Administration habit of "smear the other guy" compounded it - Cheney, to his credit, eventually came out and took responsibility. All he had to do was make the same admission earlier and he would have been fine.

Face it: it's Cheney's job (or part of it) to not do things that are embarrassing to himself and his administration, and the secondary loser in this escapade (the primary loser is still in hospital) is Cheney. He bungled this and embarrassed his administration.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You see, Jeff, once upon a time it was the job of journalists to go out and find news...to dig and investigate and tease out stories, rather than sit in a nest like baby birds impatiently waiting for their mother to bring them some worms, and chirping raucously in irritation when she was late. I guess those days are gone...

When there's no press corps attached to the VP, and he's on a private hunt on a 50,000 acre ranch, just how do you expect the press to magically know that the VP shot somebody. Pretending that this is a case of reporter laziness is simply absurd.

It's rarely the incident itself that causes the trouble - it's the attempts to hush it up or ignore it (to keep a secret, or avoid embarrassment, or habit of secretiveness) that get 'em every time

[D.O.A.R.]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Wow! I'm almost willing to give you rep cards for not bringing up President Clinton...

Actually Clinton did speak to the same group (for a fee of 200K+), but if he had said the things Gore did....well I'm pretty sure Hillary would have whacked him around. Just a guess.

Originally Posted by esskreemr

2) At what point did speaking up against American politicians become 'unAmerican'? I understand that Republicans wish for the good ole days of the monarchy, but fortunately, we don't live in Iran, Cuba, Iraq, or other countries with no protection for free speech. If you consider criticism to be anti-American or offensive, feel free to move to whatever country has the despotic regime that you crave soooo much.

You are the only person to use the word "unAmerican' in this whole thread (okay, now see what you made me do). Seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among libs to claim their patriotism is being attacked, no matter what.

"Hey Ess, is that diet coke you are drinking?"

"How dare you question my patriotism!"

[D.O.A.R.]

Originally Posted by jeff

As ess said, it would have definitely been newsworthy if Kerry shot someone.

Kerry shootings are always newsworthy. While Cheney shootings may be scant on information (leaving room for much speculation), Kerry shootings are filled to the rim with details of his own heroics (just look at the medal commendation reports he wrote himself up for). Its just date and location that he gets fuzzy on at times.

[jeff]

That's a pretty desperate maneuver, comparing Kerry's repeated mentions of his Vietnam service when the topic is Cheney's screwup. Gee, champion draft-dodger Cheney finally shoots a person, but it was a friend. Nice job. I repeated elsewhere the riddle: "what's the difference between neocons and women-and-children - answer: women and children sometimes are on a battle field".

[D.O.A.R.]

Originally Posted by jeff

That's a pretty desperate maneuver, comparing Kerry's repeated mentions of his Vietnam service when the topic is Cheney's screwup. Gee, champion draft-dodger Cheney finally shoots a person, but it was a friend. Nice job. I repeated elsewhere the riddle: "what's the difference between neocons and women-and-children - answer: women and children sometimes are on a battle field".

I was trying for funny.
Concerning your riddle, I'd have guessed that you would be one to believe it was the neocons on the battlefield killing the women and children. Who's on the battlefield with the women and children then? Liberals?

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

Kerry shootings are always newsworthy. While Cheney shootings may be scant on information (leaving room for much speculation),

OK... so Kerry, a Presidential contender on a photo op hunt that results in alot of pictures is more newsworthy than a Vice President on a night-time, canned, load them up in the SUV, hunt on a lobbyist's ranch shooting his hunting buddy in the face and then not allowing Sheriffs to question him for many hours after the shooting after the owner stated that alcohol was involved?

Oh yeah, little known fact... The Repubs LOVE to lable Kerry a failure. Consider this:

Bush 2000 'election': 50,460,110 (47.9% of votes)

Kerry 2004 'election': 59,028,111 (48.3% of votes)

Pretty good numbers for a failures...

Kerry shootings are filled to the rim with details of his own heroics (just look at the medal commendation reports he wrote himself up for). Its just date and location that he gets fuzzy on at times.

Stop listening to campaign ads... He didn't write himself up for the medal commendations...

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

You are the only person to use the word "unAmerican' in this whole thread (okay, now see what you made me do). Seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among libs to claim their patriotism is being attacked, no matter what.

Really...

Originally Posted by Slim

I actually do agree more with DOAR regarding Gore's remarks than I may have indicated. I think he's as about as close to a traitor as John Walker Lindh.

Would you like some quotes from some of the more right-wing sites?

"Hey Ess, is that diet coke you are drinking?"

"How dare you question my patriotism!"

No, I just find it increasingly disturbing that the Right immediately labels any speech critical of the government as unpatriotic or unAmerican or giving aid to the enemy.

Sorry if my defense of Constitutional ideals offends you...

[D.O.A.R.]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Oh yeah, little known fact... The Repubs LOVE to lable Kerry a failure. Consider this:

Bush 2000 'election': 50,460,110 (47.9% of votes)

Kerry 2004 'election': 59,028,111 (48.3% of votes)

Pretty good numbers for a failures...

Kudos to you for looking on the bright side of things.

[D.O.A.R.]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

No, I just find it increasingly disturbing that the the Right's immediate rlabels any speech critical of the government as unpatriotic or unAmerican or giving aid to the enemy.

Sorry if my defense of Constitutional ideals offends you...

Let me clarify my earlier statements. I take responsibility for the confusion, as I contributed heavily to the path this thread has taken.
1) Criticism of the VP in regards to this incident is not Unamerican (IMO). Your earlier statement seemed to imply that myself and/or others did consider such criticism unamerican. Not true. I just think it is excessive, misguided, and another example of the media's pro left agenda.
2) Criticism of the former VP for his recent comments, comparing him to the traitor JW Lindh is not unamerican either, and the total lack of media coverage is just another example of the media's pro left agenda.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

I was trying for funny.

Sorry. I missed that.

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

Concerning your riddle, I'd have guessed that you would be one to believe it was the neocons on the battlefield killing the women and children. Who's on the battlefield with the women and children then? Liberals?

You misunderstand my point - it's about how the most prominent neocons are conspicuous by their absence from service. They all had 'other priorities'

[jeff]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

Criticism of the former VP for his recent comments, comparing him to the traitor JW Lindh is not unamerican either, and the total lack of media coverage is just another example of the media's pro left agenda.

Look, if you were in the media, would you really want to spend any time covering Mr. Personality?

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

I was trying for funny.
Concerning your riddle, I'd have guessed that you would be one to believe it was the neocons on the battlefield killing the women and children.

The answer to the riddle involves the term 'Chickenhawk'. Look it up. Then read the neocons smear campaigns against veterans with proven service to their country. Then ask yourself why Cheney's company was doing business with Iran during an embargo while he was at the helm. Then reread your post on how Gore was off in Saudi Arabia speaking about the treatment of Muslims by the current administration. That should help put a few things in perspective for you.

Who's on the battlefield with the women and children then? Liberals?

Guys like Gore and Kerry.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Slim

Nah. The ONLY reason he was hit for these remarks were because of the hyper-sensitivity of the media to repubs and race issues. To do anything but condemn him would have been played up as racism. Lott's remarks were to make an old timer feel good on his birthday, nothing more. And he paid dearly for what I consider just simple remark.

Complete spin-pundit bull. The phrase was pretty clear considering the 'platform' that was being ran on.

As for Lott's history:

* In 1978, after his election to the US House, Lott led a successful campaign to have the US citizenship of Jefferson Davis restored. Davis lost his citizenship when he became president of the Confederate States of America when southern states were in open revolt against the US government.

* During the 1980 campaign, after Thurmond spoke at a Mississippi rally for Ronald Reagan, Lott said of the old Dixiecrat: "You know, if we had elected that man 30 years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today."

* In 1981, when he was lending his prestige as a member of the US Congress to an effort to preserve the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University -- the notorious South Carolina college that was under fire for prohibiting interracial dating -- Lott insisted that, "Racial discrimination does not always violate public policy."

* Despite the fact that he represents the state with the largest percentage of African-American citizens in the US, Lott has throughout his career been an active supporter of the Sons of the Confederacy, a group that celebrates the soldiers who fought to defend the "right" of Mississippians to own African-Americans as slaves." Lott even appears in recruitment videos for the group.

* Speaking at a 1984 convention of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, Lott declared that "the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 Republican Platform." Asked to explain his statement in an interview with the extreme rightwing publication Southern Partisan, Lott said, "I think that a lot of the fundamental principles that Jefferson Davis believed in are very important to people across the country, and they apply to the Republican Party... and more of The South's sons, Jefferson Davis' descendants, direct or indirect, are becoming involved with the Republican party."

* Lott gave the keynote address at a 1992 national executive board meeting of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a successor organization to the old white Citizens Councils, segregation-era groups the Southern Poverty Law Center refers to as "the white-collar Ku Klux Klan. The C of CC may have changed its name, but it remains a passionate "white racialist" group that condemns intermarriage, integration and immigration by non-whites. As Boston Globe columnist Derrick Z. Jackson, who has researched the group, argues, "There is no question of the resegregationist agenda of the Council of Conservative Citizens when four of the seven links listed on the home page for former Klan leader David Duke link back to the Council of Conservative Citizens." Other links, Jackson has noted, "deny the Holocaust and sell T-shirts with swastikas and Nazi stormtrooper symbols." But when Lott appeared at that Greenwood, Mississippi, meeting of C of CC leaders, he did not address his disdain for racism or anti-Semitism. Rather, he discussed his concerns about "the dark forces" that he said were overwhelming America and said, "We need more meetings like this across the nation... The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy. Let's take it in the right direction and our children will be the beneficiaries."

* In 1997, Lott was photographed meeting with national leaders of the C of CC in his Washington office. At his side were two prominent C of CC leaders: Gordon Baum, a former field organizer for the Citizens Councils in the days when they were referred to as the "uptown Klan," and William Lord, who has acknowledged using the mailing lists of the Citizens Councils to build the C of CC in the 1980s and 1990s. That same year, the C of CC used an