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keropie · 02-13-2006, 03:08 AM

Anyone heard anything about them? Anyone fence on one? They are supposedly designed to integrate the Italian Federation's findings on 'microbreaks' and some how make a better interpretation of 'the hit.' Any one know if this still meets the FIE requirement?

Just curious...

KD5MDK · 02-13-2006, 03:14 AM

I would say they probably aren't going to meet FIE specifications, given that I'm not aware of very much leeway in how the timings are defined.

Edit: I presume there are Favero machines, or have non-Italian companies picked up on this?

keropie · 02-13-2006, 12:07 PM

I know favero machines have a chip for this upgrade, I don't know about anyone else. I also have seen (in a fairly quick search) at least one competition using them (though it seemed to be a Canadian University competition, likely not completely tied to the FIE rules). I intend to try and contact Ted Li and see if he knows anything about the SG machines (cause that what our club uses). I'd love to at least have one to play with.

DieterS · 02-13-2006, 10:42 PM

Eigertek has adopted a wait-and-see stance because there have been several official and unofficial changes to the timings (which affect foil mostly), and we assume that most people do not want to upgrade their scoring machines every year.

In the meantime, a few manufacturers have created versions of the official FIE T2005 "Leipzig" timings intended to circumvent the problems created by the new timings, but they do not conform to FIE specifications.

Be warned however that there are rumors of additional changes--that Mr. Roche will continue to change foil in the hope of television coverage, followed by changes to epee for the same reason.

The current situation is that the T2005 "experimental" timings have been extended for another season. If and when the FIE makes these or some other timings official, Eigertek will provide owners of Eclipses with a one-time, free chip upgrade.

Until then, hang on to your hats!

Dieter
Eigertek

Duellist USA · 02-14-2006, 01:04 AM

Favaro actually has three chips you can get in your machine...

1. Old timing
2. New Timing
3. Both switched by holding down a button

SG are machines made by Mr Chen over at Blue Guantlet....made in China

Rick Shellhouse

DieterS · 02-14-2006, 01:19 AM

The Eclipse comes with three settings for the current chip:

1. 2004 club timings
2. T2005 "Leipzig" timings
3. Instant duration practice mode

Other settings that we could consider adding in the future could include

a. Filtered T2005 timings to eliminate "micro-breaks"
b. No off-target version
c. Eigertek's "fencer-friendly" timings

Any preferences or suggestions?

Dieter
Eigertek

KD5MDK · 02-14-2006, 01:23 AM

I don't own any Eigertek machines (or go to clubs that have them), but I think sabre fencers are interested in a timing somewhere in between the current ones and the old ones, perhaps a 200-225ms lockout instead of ~120.

DHCJr · 02-14-2006, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

SG are machines made by Mr Chen over at Blue Guantlet....made in China

Rick Shellhouse

Actually, this is wrong. Mr. Chen is the US supplier for St. George machines. There are 2 brothers who are the actual makers of the machines. One lives in Paris, France and one in San Diego.

KD5MDK · 02-14-2006, 01:35 AM

Is there any connection between this St. George (as a French brand?) and SG as Mr. Chen's brand?

DHCJr · 02-14-2006, 01:41 AM

Why don't you ask the question if there is a connection between Leon Paul USA, Allstar USA, Duelist USA, etc. Since Mr. Chen is the exclusive supplier, he incorporated that name. SG USA is BG.

KD5MDK · 02-14-2006, 01:53 AM

It wasn't clear to me if Mr. Chen owns SG overall, or is just their US vendor. When I asked him what the difference is, he described it as "SG is the international brand of Blue Gauntlet", which implies to me that SG is his way of selling his gear to Europe and the rest of the world.

kalivor · 02-14-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieterS

Eigertek has adopted a wait-and-see stance because there have been several official and unofficial changes to the timings (which affect foil mostly), and we assume that most people do not want to upgrade their scoring machines every year.

In the meantime, a few manufacturers have created versions of the official FIE T2005 "Leipzig" timings intended to circumvent the problems created by the new timings, but they do not conform to FIE specifications.

Be warned however that there are rumors of additional changes--that Mr. Roche will continue to change foil in the hope of television coverage, followed by changes to epee for the same reason.

The current situation is that the T2005 "experimental" timings have been extended for another season. If and when the FIE makes these or some other timings official, Eigertek will provide owners of Eclipses with a one-time, free chip upgrade.

Until then, hang on to your hats!

Dieter
Eigertek

The changes are no longer "unofficial" or "experimental", as of the most recent FIE Congress.

Check out page 11 of this document: http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...s%2005-ANG.pdf

DieterS · 02-14-2006, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalivor

The changes are no longer "unofficial" or "experimental", as of the most recent FIE Congress. Check out page 11 of this document: http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...s%2005-ANG.pdf

Thank you--I stand corrected! Considering the changes proposed by Brazil/Arthur Cramer for the next FIE Congress, a no-off-target foil setting might be the most useful addition to the Eclipse.

However, I am very disappointed that despite the strong requests from the Italian Federation, no provision for "micro-breaks" in the 14 millisecond rule was included (this is the primary cause of unrecorded hits in foil under the new timings).

Stay tuned!

Dieter
Eigertek

ViewtifulMisho · 02-15-2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieterS

The Eclipse comes with three settings for the current chip:

1. 2004 club timings
2. T2005 "Leipzig" timings
3. Instant duration practice mode

Other settings that we could consider adding in the future could include

a. Filtered T2005 timings to eliminate "micro-breaks"
b. No off-target version
c. Eigertek's "fencer-friendly" timings

Any preferences or suggestions?

Dieter
Eigertek

I have a suggestion/question:

Is it economically feasable to make a machine into which the lockout time can be programmed? Perhaps a dial can be used to increase or decrease the time frame.

This might be attractive for clubs. For example, there is talk of a new sabre timing somewhere between the old one and the new one. If it doesn't work out in the experimental phase, machine owners won't have to order replacement chips. They can just turn the dial to change the lockout time from 120ms to ~220ms and back again whenever they want.

Not only that, but they can change it to the old ~300ms to properly instruct students in right of way and not have to worry about messy remises, etc. (of course, once they handle right of way, they'll have to learn that anyway, but a step at a time...).

DieterS · 02-16-2006, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

I have a suggestion/question: Is it economically feasable to make a machine into which the lockout time can be programmed? Perhaps a dial can be used to increase or decrease the time frame.

Yes, a scoring machine could be created with controls for all the lockout, debounce, and other timings, but it would be more expensive and harder to use. I suppose someone could program a laptop machine with these controls built in, but most people would tweak the settings until they were satisfied and then leave them there (and hope that a foil blade doesn't skewer the display). There's also the question of training for a national or international event.

But isn't finding the best timings through extensive testing what you would expect the FIE to do for you?

Instead, we have to endure an ill-conceived, defective timing change crammed down our throats in the hysterical quest to eliminate the flick, return foil to the "purity" of the 17th century (read boring), and thus make fencing magically appear on prime time television all over the world.

Oh, and it's easy for Eigertek to make a timing change--it takes us a few minutes at most. Yes, we could make a nice profit off selling updated chips to clubs every year or so, but that's not why we're in business!

Dieter
Eigertek

Duellist USA · 02-16-2006, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Actually, this is wrong. Mr. Chen is the US supplier for St. George machines. There are 2 brothers who are the actual makers of the machines. One lives in Paris, France and one in San Diego.

Hmmm well I asked Mr Chen today in passing and he said SG is his import/export branch....a seperate business from BG...but unless i misunderstood him ( and thats possible) he said he owns SG....but hey like I said...its easy to misunderstand him...

R

keropie · 02-16-2006, 06:16 AM

I believe he does own SG, but I don't believe that the SG boxes (SG12, 21, etc) are really SG products, but instead Saint George products. Though this is nothing more than my impression, and has virtually no research behind it (I know that BG and SG are both registered to the same physical address, and that's about it).