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jjefferies · 02-12-2006, 04:20 AM

I received a yellow card at DitD for what the director called parrying with the off hand. I do remember feeling my opponent's blade hitting my left arm as we closed distance and were infighting. As I remember the action I believe no touch was scored. Though I was not concious of having used my off-arm, it was in a down position, I did not argue the point as I felt the director had been reasonable in other calls (and I was up in points) and a director can often see what a fencer cannot.

That said, if you are not actively moving the off-arm to ward your opponent's weapon but your opponent strikes your off-arm flat (remember the off-arm is a target in epee) does this constitute a parry? Likewise what about the weapon arm? If you are in-fighting and your weapon arm blocks your opponent's blade action is that an illegal parry. I'm thinking specifically where you have used a beat to move the opponent's blade, stepped inside his point parrying his blade with your blade and/or arm. What's the call in this situation?

Beowulfman6 · 02-12-2006, 04:32 PM

I've often wondered the same thing. I've never seen somone carded for covering target or 'parrying' with the weapon arm, but I suppose it's possible.

It just happens accidentally sometimes; you go to pary and your opponent colapses distance with a disengage and you end up parrying with the arm. I have been infighting and reversed my shoulders; when I do this I throw my arm up so I'm not covering, but once I threw it up and caught my opponent's blade. Is this parrying? I tent to think that if it is incidental (and the reff sees it this way) you will not be carded.

Torg · 02-12-2006, 08:55 PM

i've gotten called on that too... i used to give my opponent's blade a sharp whack with my wrist. now what i do (which still might not be completely legal but there's no way to call it) is i hold my arm stiff against my side and reverse my shoulders to bring my back arm forward. This not only increases my remise speed by bringing my arm back but also increases the travel distance necessary for my opponent to remise.

notalent · 02-12-2006, 08:57 PM

Greetings J,
I gave you the card becuase you moved your arm away from your body and moved his blade offline. I won't card for doing a similar thing with the weapon arm. We let folks do more with the weapon arm because you have to wield the weapon. The obvious exception in foil is to cover target and not be doing anything with the weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjefferies

I received a yellow card at DitD for what the director called parrying with the off hand. I do remember feeling my opponent's blade hitting my left arm as we closed distance and were infighting. As I remember the action I believe no touch was scored. Though I was not concious of having used my off-arm, it was in a down position, I did not argue the point as I felt the director had been reasonable in other calls (and I was up in points) and a director can often see what a fencer cannot.

That said, if you are not actively moving the off-arm to ward your opponent's weapon but your opponent strikes your off-arm flat (remember the off-arm is a target in epee) does this constitute a parry? Likewise what about the weapon arm? If you are in-fighting and your weapon arm blocks your opponent's blade action is that an illegal parry. I'm thinking specifically where you have used a beat to move the opponent's blade, stepped inside his point parrying his blade with your blade and/or arm. What's the call in this situation?

tbryan · 02-13-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notalent

I gave you the card becuase you moved your arm away from your body and moved his blade offline. I won't card for doing a similar thing with the weapon arm. We let folks do more with the weapon arm because you have to wield the weapon. The obvious exception in foil is to cover target and not be doing anything with the weapon.

Agreed. I didn't see the incident, but I have seen epeeists who raise their non-weapon arm while starting to infight. So, one fencer attacks. The other fencer makes a big parry and closes distance. The initial attacker's blade is now against the other fencers back arm (flat). No card yet. The fencer who closed is now trying to infight. While he is attempting to get his point on, he raises his back arm. This pushes his opponent's blade away from his body and makes it more difficult for his opponent to free his weapon for a remise. Yellow card.

Fencers often do something like this automatically or accidentally. I know. One of my clubmates used to do it all the time in practice, but I think that we trained it out of him before he got carded for it. The referee cannot tell intent. If you push or move your opponent's blade in any way with your non-weapon arm, the referee should give you the penalty if he notices.

Of course, you wouldn't have this problem if you kept your arm in a classcial en guarde position.

Taomagicdragon · 02-13-2006, 12:47 AM

^ Agrees with the above poster on the en guarde position

It's a reflex that needs to be trained out of you.

tbryan · 02-13-2006, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taomagicdragon

^ Agrees with the above poster on the en guarde position.

Except that I was actually kidding. Sorry that the tone wasn't more clear.

I don't use and don't really attempt to teach that guard position. Generally, I like the back arm out of the way and not uncomfortable to the fencer. That tends to be held back but not raised very high.

Li'l Bebe · 02-13-2006, 01:14 AM

my buddy did that in foil...with sergei golubitski refing. he didn't even see it. beautiful, if dishonest.

OROD · 02-13-2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notalent

I won't card for doing a similar thing with the weapon arm. We let folks do more with the weapon arm because you have to wield the weapon. The obvious exception in foil is to cover target and not be doing anything with the weapon.

There's no such obvious exception, the rulebook only talks about covering target with the non-weapon arm. You cant cover target with the weapon arm and you already said why.

.

eac · 02-13-2006, 09:48 AM

Funny, I thought OROD didn't care about what the rulebook said...

keropie · 02-13-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torg

now what i do (which still might not be completely legal but there's no way to call it) is i hold my arm stiff against my side and reverse my shoulders to bring my back arm forward. This not only increases my remise speed by bringing my arm back but also increases the travel distance necessary for my opponent to remise.

One of the easiest calls in the world in foil, anyhow, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it called in epee. In foil it's an immediate yellow card for covering target. In epee if your arm actually displaces the opponent's point mid turn, I can see you getting the same card from above.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 02-13-2006, 02:49 PM

As far as I know, turning your shoulder IS legal.

OROD · 02-13-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eac

Funny, I thought OROD didn't care about what the rulebook said...

Hehe, you're right, what matters is how the directors call it, not what the rulebook says. And in this case, I've never seen a director call covering target with the weapon arm.

.

notalent · 02-13-2006, 04:01 PM

Greetings OROD,
Nor had I until Albq. A ref there carded one of the squishies for sustitution of target. the kid had his weapon arm in a V across his chest, blade angled forward. No attempt to wield the blade, just push the other fencer off the strip. The kids coach went to the BC the card was upheld. I'm not saying I would do it I'm just saying it could be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OROD

Hehe, you're right, what matters is how the directors call it, not what the rulebook says. And in this case, I've never seen a director call covering target with the weapon arm.

.

notalent · 02-13-2006, 04:07 PM

Greetings tbryan,
There is an former Armenian pentathalete now in LA that is legendary for back arm parries. So much so that I won't let him hook up on my left.

Coincedentaly his students seem to do it aswell

Terry

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbryan

Agreed. I didn't see the incident, but I have seen epeeists who raise their non-weapon arm while starting to infight. So, one fencer attacks. The other fencer makes a big parry and closes distance. The initial attacker's blade is now against the other fencers back arm (flat). No card yet. The fencer who closed is now trying to infight. While he is attempting to get his point on, he raises his back arm. This pushes his opponent's blade away from his body and makes it more difficult for his opponent to free his weapon for a remise. Yellow card.

Fencers often do something like this automatically or accidentally. I know. One of my clubmates used to do it all the time in practice, but I think that we trained it out of him before he got carded for it. The referee cannot tell intent. If you push or move your opponent's blade in any way with your non-weapon arm, the referee should give you the penalty if he notices.

Of course, you wouldn't have this problem if you kept your arm in a classcial en guarde position.

KD5MDK · 02-13-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OROD

There's no such obvious exception, the rulebook only talks about covering target with the non-weapon arm. You cant cover target with the weapon arm and you already said why.

.

Cite? I see

Quote:

Originally Posted by t.22

...In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to
substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by
covering or by an abnormal movement (cf. t.114, t.116, t.120); any
touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled...

It doesn't say anything about what part of the body you cover with, only that it is not target area. I know you've seen people carded for covering target with their mask, and it would apply equally well if they used their legs, feet, hair (thus must be off the lame) etc. In general I'd say the weapon arm would be considered part of the manipulating the weapon rather than covering, but I can forsee cases where the fencer is clearly covering.

notalent · 02-13-2006, 04:58 PM

Greetings D,
As long as the non weapon arm doesn't cover target you reverse your shoulders. At SN I had a competitor ask if I would card him if put his off weapon arm on top of his mask when he reversed his shoulders. I said I wouldn't, he avoided atleast 5 cards by doing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

As far as I know, turning your shoulder IS legal.

KD5MDK · 02-13-2006, 05:09 PM

I know some people who really need to do that.

tbryan · 02-13-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notalent

Greetings D,
As long as the non weapon arm doesn't cover target you reverse your shoulders. At SN I had a competitor ask if I would card him if put his off weapon arm on top of his mask when he reversed his shoulders. I said I wouldn't, he avoided atleast 5 cards by doing that.

Note that they're talking about epee. Covering target shouldn't be an issue.

Rapier_wit · 02-13-2006, 05:38 PM

I've wondered the same thing. Granted the ref that was scoring us just accounted to the fact that I was former martial artist, so I'm used to blocking with my left hand. I had a nasty cut on that hand for 2 weeks. So I've been keeping my left arm behind my back as to not encourage it to block. Nevertheless, I've been told that that's not a good position either.