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swordsen · 12-31-2001, 11:16 AM

These events are nice in that they allow the less experienced fencers to compete with a greater chance for sucess. the problem I have with them is that way too many fencers won't fence in any events but these. It is very common to see D&under events with 30 entries then the open with 10. So what happens is that people train themselves to fence weaker fencers. they never fence the better ones until they manage to win one of these things and get a C. since they have rarely if ever fenced anyone rated higher than a D before they promptly get massacred. Which can of course be very discouraging considering they had worked their way up to doing well in teh events they had been fencing.
People end up with rating that are meaninless. (which brings us back again to the rating system which is an eternal mess)
I have no problem with the events themselves, but with the fencers who, because there are so many of these events now, never fence in opens. It dilutes the overall strenght of the events.

edew · 12-31-2001, 12:17 PM

Not all fencers want to be oh-so-competitive, and D-and-under events are offered for those people. We have a similar situation here in the Bay Area. Among the women fencers, many don't want to compete in the open because they think they'll get slaughtered. But most of the fencers are D-under (or C-under) anyway, and would compete in the Category II events (which is sort of between a D-under and C-under), or the junior events. Well, most are juniors and C/D-unders. So what happens is that those events become quite tough whereas the open is not as tough. Oh well.

To encourage attendance, we offer end-of-season prizes to top point holders. The fact is, if you attend all the events, and place just middling, you'll have a better shot at getting a decent prize at the end of the season than if you win one or two and not attend any other.

swordsen · 12-31-2001, 12:37 PM

A d& under for the not so competative is great untill he accidently wins one and gets his C. Now what? Hide for 4 years? Join the USFA under anew name?
The Cat II events in the bay cup are nice but don't solve the problem for the rest of us.

damianip · 12-31-2001, 06:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
So what happens is that people train themselves to fence weaker fencers. they never fence the better ones until they manage to win one of these things and get a C. since they have rarely if ever fenced anyone rated higher than a D before they promptly get massacred.<hr></blockquote>

And this is preferable to getting crushed in every tournament that they go to? After a few experiences like that, they then quit competing or, worse yet, quit the sport entirely.

It seems that you are disappointed that you don't get the requisite "pool fodder" which would make it easier to get a "B" or "C" if you don't have a bunch of lower rated fencers to get your tourneys up to B4 or C4.

Paolo

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: damianip ]

damianip · 12-31-2001, 06:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
A d& under for the not so competative is great untill he accidently wins one and gets his C. <hr></blockquote>

How does one accidently win a tournament?

Let me know, I'd like to dispense with the "practice, desire and lessons" method.

Paolo

swordsen · 01-01-2002, 07:17 AM

I don't want "pool fodder" I want people to become the best fencers they can. and to do that they need to compete against the best fencers they can. They aren't going to do it if they only fence other low low rated fencers. Hell I am one of these people. I am a good solid D in foil and it is all I deserve to be. Foil is just domething I do. I enter the D & under event stoo. But I also fence in the opens. I lose to the A's and the B's but it is fun to fence them, to go for the touch.
As for "accidently" winning, somedays people get lucky. somedays the competition is just a weaker than usual. There has been more than one D & Under event where I have been sitting there about to fence the final bout and I am torn because I know that I do not fence foil at a C level, I don't deserve a C in fact I don't want one. I would be emabarased to claim it at my skill level. But here I am fencing for it.Luckily for me the other guy has thus far been a bit more deserving. But I always make him work his butt off for it.
Fencers need to fence in both open and D& under events. If they get creamed in the open it is ok, it is expected, but they will improive. and they can win bouts in the D& under and salve their egos. then, when it happens that they win the d& under and have that C they will at least know what they are up against. And will probably be able to handle it.

Mergs · 01-01-2002, 07:19 AM

kwitcher*****in, at least these people are getting out and FENCING, which is a hell of a lot more than most of the "tire kickers" that come through my classes. What's wrong with just fencing for fun? Just be thankful that you have "competitions" that draw that many fencers, and kwitcher*****in and if it is a problem, do something about it.

Damn, there goes the first resolution. Sigh.

swordsen · 01-01-2002, 11:26 AM

LOL. Been trying to do something about it for awhile now. Not much success.
Trust me I am pleased with the competitions we get. And I have plenty of tire kickers myself.

damianip · 01-01-2002, 12:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
Fencers need to fence in both open and D& under events. If they get creamed in the open it is ok, it is expected, but they will improive. and they can win bouts in the D& under and salve their egos. then, when it happens that they win the d& under and have that C they will at least know what they are up against. And will probably be able to handle it.<hr></blockquote>

Some do need it but not necessarily immediately. If someone finds a comfort level and enjoyment fencing in D and under events let them. Some people don't think it is OK to be creamed, and many beginners will not even know why they are losing.

Remember, the real purpose of ratings is to allow for intelligent, fair seeding, as much as can be expected from any statistical method. We attach a sense of achievement to getting a letter because ot helps drive us in our training.

The only "real" reality is in national and international rankings, and, even then, it's got its problems.

Paolo

three_hundred_fifty_five · 01-01-2002, 12:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
...It is very common to see D&under events with 30 entries then the open with 10...<hr></blockquote>

You get no sympathy from me. I regularly attend events that hope to squeak in 15 fencers in an event. To commonly see 30 fencers would be great. So when you get around to it, cry me a river. <img src="graemlins/jawa.gif" border="0" alt="[Jawa]" />

Purple Fencer · 01-01-2002, 04:11 PM

[quote]Originally posted by three_hundred_fifty_five:


You get no sympathy from me. I regularly attend events that hope to squeak in 15 fencers in an event. To commonly see 30 fencers would be great. So when you get around to it, cry me a river. <img src="graemlins/jawa.gif" border="0" alt="[Jawa]" /> <hr></blockquote>

So come to a SoCal event in Los Angeles...we tend to average in the 20s for almost any foil event (not counting age group ones), in the high teens for epee, and the mid teens for sabre. I'd say our average open foil is a C1 event, but we've pulled B1s and even an A1 on occasion.

HilandDoug · 01-02-2002, 10:32 AM

Well, Swordsen, thank you for starting this topic and answering my question. It has sparked some lively debate! There have been some valid observations on both sides of the issue here.

swordsen · 01-02-2002, 11:56 AM

No problem. That is the point of this place after all.