chest protector

[KD5MDK]

From the FOC website:

Chest Protectors at USFA competitions:

The Executive Committee of the USFA has issued a ruling regarding the use of chest protectors for Foil for USFA competition:

"Breast protectors/chest protection : The use of breast protectors/chest protection in Foil is authorized for Men and Women providing that they are worn under the fencing jacket. Urgent decision. Immediate application."

I have not heard of an alteration in this policy.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Actually, if you search DHCjr's posts, he can point to the rule that requires a cup for men. I doubt anyone will ever get checked, but it is a rule. As far as comfort, there have been some amazing advances in safety equipment. The new generation is far more comfortable than you can imagine. As for the chances of getting injured, if I can avoid any injury by wearing cheap, available safety equipment, I will.

Jon Moss tells a story about New Jersey High School fencing, where cups for boys were required.

Denise O'Connor would line the boys up and use an Epee as a pendulum to test that each and every one was wearing their cup.

[Morion]

I don't get the concept that wearing a chest protector under the plastron is cheating. When the timings changed some fencers were wearing one under their lame to get the bounce to beat the timings. That's cheating. To wear a chest protector in a normal manner simply adds an extra bit of protection but no advantage in competition. Am I correct in that belief?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Morion

I don't get the concept that wearing a chest protector under the plastron is cheating. When the timings changed some fencers were wearing one under their lame to get the bounce to beat the timings. That's cheating. To wear a chest protector in a normal manner simply adds an extra bit of protection but no advantage in competition. Am I correct in that belief?

In foil, the chest protector causes the point to bounce off the target more rapidly, this combined with the new timings, can make it very difficult to hit fencers wearing them. Even when worn according to the rules, next to the skin, under the jacket, plastron and lame, it can be very difficult to make the point 'stick.'

[CvilleFencer]

I wear one from time to time in both epee and foil. I have never had anyone folish enough to question my manliness about it, at least in person! If I am giving lessons or if I am fencing in a pool or DE with someone I know tends to hit hard, as a result of their style or my reaction to their style I will wear one.

This whole "it is not fair" thing is bull. As said, the same "advantage" is available to everyone who may chose to use it therefore there is no "unfair" advantage. I have scene fencers with tips so crunchy or the springs so out of adjustment that they have to whack very solid and dead on to get a light. My tips are smooth and just legal. That does not mean I am cheating, it means the other person is either uneducated as to his equipment options or does not care. I have an LP lightweight lame that is very slick. For that matter my epee uniform is very slick. If I am fencing someone who is wearing a sandpaper quality lame and their jacket is covered in pilling or bulky material over prime target area that is their problem, not mine. I wear fencing shoes that allow me to move very fast. I have fenced people wearing clunky crosstrainers or even once, hiking boots! That does not mean I am cheating by using the best equipment for me.

I could go on but you get the idea. Add on to this that a CP is SAFETY equipment and the whole argument becomes even more ludicrous. In addition to providing a solid barrier to bruises, cracked ribs and other damage (I know a fencer who had a rib cracked fencing foil. He always wears a CP now!) there is also, granted at a much lower percentage, the increase risk of breast cancer that can happen to men as well as woman. I seem to recall hearing of an old BFA study showing that a scary percentage of all male breast cancer patients in the UK were either fencers, or even more common, coaches! Add to all that the fact that there is a tradeoff in comfort (its hot) and mobility (somewhat limits the range of motion) with the CP that, at least IMHO equals out any advantage to hit deflection they may offer.

When the timings first changed they were more of an issue as people had not figured out how to adjust their grip/hand strength and the way they make their hits under the new timings. Now I think it is more or less people just looking for another reason to ***** and moan about how unfair the referee/other fencer/FIE/coach/BC/venue/weather/gods are to them in relation to how they fence on a given day...

[Frater_Frag]

The problem with the chest protectors could be fixed rather easy. All that is needed is that the surface of the protector is covered with something that will give the point enough time to remain pressed in order to for a hit to register properly. Maybe a coating of some soft rubber?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Frater_Frag

The problem with the chest protectors could be fixed rather easy. All that is needed is that the surface of the protector is covered with something that will give the point enough time to remain pressed in order to for a hit to register properly. Maybe a coating of some soft rubber?

Or we could just adjust the timings so that straight, clean hits don't bounce off a rigid surface with no light. Otherwise I am going to insist that very skinny/bony or rock hard abs having fencers be coated in soft rubber before being allowed to compete in foil...

[Beowulfman6]

I totaly agree with the above.

Most of the CP's I have seen don't actualy cover the area I get bruises on anyway, which is the shoulder and upper arm.

[Beowulfman6]

I realized that my club has some old male CP's laying around; maybe I'll do some experiments tonight at practice to see just how much they make the person harder to hit.

to add to the above post, I have fenced skinny/bony people that were way harder to hit than anyone I have fenced that was wearing a chest protector. What realy bugs me is skinny people with baggy lames, that you'r point just keeps sinking into without hitting anything solid. It completely throws my distance.

[jeff]

After 30 years of coming home with welts all over my chest, I finally went and bought a chest protector. A little uncomfortable, and makes it a little hotter, but I really enjoy not feeling the shot when I got hit and then coming home full of marks on my body. My motto "pain sucks" comes into play here. I could not tell any difference in scoring. Maybe it's an issue in stronger competition, but I couldn't tell. If I didn't parry, I got hit and the light went on. I must admit one person did not agree: in one competition a fencer tried to wheedle me out of using it and I didn't. After I eliminated him in DEs he threw a major temper tantrum (I would have black carded him, but it wasn't my call to make) I then fenced a close family member who WAS wearing the chest protector. I wonder if the first one would have similarly demanded his family member remove the protector. Ironic. Anyhow, the second one eliminated me - and his chest protector had nothing to do with it. Maybe 'he wore a chest protector' can also be used as an excuse, too.

[Patterson]

1. The Whole Idea of "Manliness" is stupid. To many people have been injured to prove thier "manliness".
2. If you want to wear a chest protector fine, do so. If not don't. This really shouldn't be a huge deal, at least it isn't to me, 'cause i'm an eppeist(sp?).
3. I think the whole timing is effected by the plate thing is one of those things that are a one in a million occurence. Perhaps not, i don't fence foil, so i'm probobly ignorent here, but it seems to me that this entire debate isn't THAT big of a deal...

[stealingophelia]

Originally Posted by Patterson

1. The Whole Idea of "Manliness" is stupid. To many people have been injured to prove thier "manliness".
2. If you want to wear a chest protector fine, do so. If not don't. This really shouldn't be a huge deal, at least it isn't to me, 'cause i'm an eppeist(sp?).
3. I think the whole timing is effected by the plate thing is one of those things that are a one in a million occurence. Perhaps not, i don't fence foil, so i'm probobly ignorent here, but it seems to me that this entire debate isn't THAT big of a deal...

definatly not one in a million, but its not evrytime you hit them. there was some small kid at a local comp. here boasting about how no one could hit him because of his chest protector and slick lame

[rory]

Originally Posted by Patterson

3. I think the whole timing is effected by the plate thing is one of those things that are a one in a million occurence. Perhaps not, i don't fence foil, so i'm probobly ignorent here, but it seems to me that this entire debate isn't THAT big of a deal...

You need to fence some foil.
One in a million? No.
Try about one in five or ten, for straight dead on lunges at the correct distance, if your opponent has the slightest forward lean it'll skite right off.

If you need a piece of plastic to beat me, then you're not worth my respect, and I'm likely to make that very apparent on piste.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by rory

If you need a piece of plastic to beat me, then you're not worth my respect, and I'm likely to make that very apparent on piste.

Surely this could not have been the idea from FIE, to plant disrespect towards each other in fencing?

As a female épéeist I wear a breast protector anyways, it just saddens me if this is the outcome of the enforcement of better safety regulations...


(And this was not pointed personally to you, Rory, just a reflection in general.)

[rory]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Surely this could not have been the idea from FIE, to plant disrespect towards each other in fencing?

As a female épéeist I wear a breast protector anyways, it just saddens me if this is the outcome of the enforcement of better safety regulations...


(And this was not pointed personally to you, Rory, just a reflection in general.)

No problem.
I think you may have misunderstood me. In epee there is no problem with chest protectors. And this isn't the result of any change to safety regulations - it's purely a result of a spurious change to the foil timings made effectively on a whim by Roch and his idiot cronies.

If the timings hadn't been changed, chest protectors wouldn't have the effect of making it easier to evade hits.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by rory

In epee there is no problem with chest protectors.

I hadn't thought about this. Why isn't it an issue with epee - different stiffness of the blade and 500g vs. 750g?

[Katman]

If you nail 'em in the chest with a powerful lunge while fencing epee the weapon will go off. I think rory's refering to those times in foil nowadays when you do the same thing and the tip redoubles too quickly thanks to whatever (chest protector, sternum, bad luck).

The blade will still bend and everything, but the light won't go off. Then they jab you with a counter attack and it's one light and you just want to snap your weapon in two and you curse the new timings.

I seem to have on and off days. I'll be fencing fine on Monday but on Wednesday it'll feel like my tip bounces off of them all over the place. It's probably something I'm doing differently.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jeff

I hadn't thought about this. Why isn't it an issue with epee - different stiffness of the blade and 500g vs. 750g?

The stronger spring and travel distance in epee require a more "significant" hit than in foil, true, but I think that's it's more an issue with the change to the foil "debounce timing".

In epee, the box must not register a touch until the tip is depressed for 2 milliseconds. It must register a touch if the tip is depressed for 10 milliseconds. So, every box must register a touch by the time the tip is depressed for 10 milliseconds, and some boxes may register a touch after the tip is depressed for 2 milliseconds.

In foil, those timings used to be 1 and 5. Now, they're (um...can't remember...did the USFA rulebook not get updated?)...12 and 15, I think. That is, the box cannot register a touch until the tip is depressed for at least 12 milliseconds. It must register a touch once the tip is depressed for 15 milliseconds.

Now, add to that the lighter, more flexible blades in foil, and it becomes easy to "hit" a grazing touch that even bends the blade a bit but then slides past the foilist's lame. The tip was depressed, but for less than 10 milliseconds.

The bigger problem is perhaps the specter of "microbreaks". That is, when I hit something solid, my blade bends. As the blade bends, the tip may shift and move in the barrel. What happens if the tip is depressed for 20 milliseconds, but every 5 milliseconds, there is a .5 millisecond break of contact as the tip shifts or bounces in the barrel? If that causes the touch not to register, then you can see really amazing "no touch" situations. By the time 20 or 30 milliseconds pass, the foilist's blade may have bent enough to ground out on the lame (not a problem in epee) or bounced off and past.

While I don't have a lot of problems with the new timing even when my opponent wears a chest protector, I've watched one of my clubmates fence and hit his opponent in the center of the chest. Textbook hit. Looks like a lunge like you'd see in someone taking a good lesson. His blade bends up, tip on his opponent's lame. Clear hit. His opponent remises. One light for his opponent. (Again, no chest plates involved.)

The theory is that chest plates perhaps induce more microbreaks during the time the tip should be depressed. They also certainly make some hits bounce or slide off that would perhaps otherwise land. They also help to ensure that flicks that hit the plate don't register. (Yes, foilists can still hit flicks. Yes, it's somewhat harder to do. Yes, a hard plastic shell seems to make the flick harder to hit.) I don't fence foil enough to know whether it really causes me trouble. In a close DE, I imagine that it could make a difference of a touch or two, and that might gain someone a victory. In my case, I've never noticed that my opponent wearing a plate made much of a difference in my bouts. Either my style in foil isn't much affected by it, we're on boxes not much affected by microbreaks, or I'm too clueless to notice.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by tbryan

One light for his opponent. (Again, no chest plates involved.)

The theory is that chest plates perhaps induce more microbreaks during the time the tip

Eek indeed! With things like that happening with or without chest protectors, how can anyone tell whether the protectors significantly increase the effect or if it's a placebo effect (people looking for 'good' hits not scoring because CPs are in use, and therefore notice them more). Thanks for the post.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jeff

Eek indeed! With things like that happening with or without chest protectors, how can anyone tell whether the protectors significantly increase the effect or if it's a placebo effect (people looking for 'good' hits not scoring because CPs are in use, and therefore notice them more).

Well, one could do a controlled study to find out, but I guess that would be the sort of thing the SEMI would do. Actually, you'd hope that they'd do it before they change the rules. I don't have the interest in doing a controlled test myself. I believe that the chest protectors do make some difference. In particular, it probably helps if one is already a bit of a squirmy foil fencer (leaning, dodging, and twisting away while counter-attacking or remising). Personally, when I have fenced people who wore a chest protector, I either beat them anyway, or I felt that they would have beat me with or without the chest protector.

Of course, I lost a touch just a couple of weeks ago. Straight shot right to a lefty's shoulder. My blade bent. I recovered from my lunge. He relaxed, expecting the halt. Then, he saw no light on the box, and by the time I realized that there wasn't a halt, I had been hit. No chest plate in that instance. Those sorts of things happened from time to time before (lack of tip tape, faulty weapon, etc.). They're now quite common.

Now you understand all of the griping about the new timings. Add to that general annoyance with the timing change a competitor who is trying to "game the system" further by wearing a chest protector. The opponent uses the chest protector as he either accelerates into an attack (hoping for a hard hit on the plate that bounces off and doesn't