chest protector

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Torg

there's a huge difference there. they don't require a chest protector because it barely adds any protection and it's almost entirely for comfort, although i hear they're uncomfortable. on the other hand, masks protect bare skin and very easily damaged body parts, such as eyes.

with masks, it's a life and death issue. with chest protectors, it's only a matter of a few bruises.

It barely adds any protection? Any evidence to back this up? I'm sure I could dig up information on the ease of penetration of plastic vs. cloth, can you provide any info of the worthlessness of the chest protector?

I can also point to several puncture wounds that people have received in recent memory where a chest protector would have helped. Most notably a young French fencer who was killed by a broken blade in practice.

Also, do you make fun of male fencers who wear a cup? To me, safety is very personal and while you may feel perfectly safe wearing whatever you wear, others may not.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by bynadutch

Ok, I knew that... but I was wondering about how the chest protector has affected the effectiveness of touches (in foil) since the new timing changes went into effect. (whew!)
Not wanting to hi-jack the thread, but not worth starting a new one to sate my random curious thought.

Thanks.

(I hope I used those Affective and Effective right hehehe yep, pretty sure I did)

You should do a search on new foil timings. It will turn up some lengthy threads that discuss the issue. In addition, the fact that FIE created a rule specifically for the male chest protectors within a week, should tell you something...

[bynadutch]

Originally Posted by achilleus

You should do a search on new foil timings. It will turn up some lengthy threads that discuss the issue. In addition, the fact that FIE created a rule specifically for the male chest protectors within a week, should tell you something...

Ha! Its been a long night, didn't even think of that.
Thanks for your patience.

[Spike327]

Originally Posted by bynadutch

Ok, I knew that... but I was wondering about how the chest protector has affected the effectiveness of touches (in foil) since the new timing changes went into effect. (whew!)

Conceptually, I think it's basically this:
The new timing requires the tip to be depressed against the lame for a much longer amount of time before the light goes on. A hit against a very hard surface, like a chest protector, can cause a straight attack to bounce off just as soon as it hits (so the circuit won't be on for long enough). On flesh, the point would sink in a bit and the circuit would be completed for enough time to turn on the light.

Experience-wise... I have stayed as far away from foil as possible (go epee!). I do remember one collegiate meet last year where every member of one school's foil squad wore plates. Simple attacks seemed to rarely go off, unless they were to the deep flank or groin, and most of the touches had to be scored in infighting.

[bynadutch]

Yeesh, okay... back to my epee
*runs back to the epee side of the room*

And now back to your Regularly Scheduled Thread.

Sorry for hi-jacking it

[Torg]

Originally Posted by achilleus

It barely adds any protection? Any evidence to back this up? I'm sure I could dig up information on the ease of penetration of plastic vs. cloth, can you provide any info of the worthlessness of the chest protector?

I can also point to several puncture wounds that people have received in recent memory where a chest protector would have helped. Most notably a young French fencer who was killed by a broken blade in practice.

Also, do you make fun of male fencers who wear a cup? To me, safety is very personal and while you may feel perfectly safe wearing whatever you wear, others may not.

given the number of times someone is hit in a tournament or practice multiplied by the number of fencers and the number of practices or tournaments per year, that's a huge number when compared to a handful of injuries. (by the way, in the 3 years i have been fencing, i have not encountered any individual who has withstained such an injury when using equipment properly). if it were a safety issue, the FIE would require them. obviously it's not.

again, a cup is a personal choice. i have never been hit there, and i remember from my baseball days how uncomfortable cups are. if someone wants to use extra protection, by all means let them. however, the likelihood of them actually saving your life (or future kids' lives, as it were) when the cloth equipment doesn't is so inconceivably small that it really isn't an issue.

there have been 7 deaths due to fencing in the past 70 years. i think that's a fine risk to take for the sake of comfort, given that safety standards are now higher than they were when more than half of those deaths occurred.

[Spike327]

Originally Posted by Torg

...i have never been hit there...

Are you serious? I probably get a moderate nutshot once every month or so... I agree with you though, I find cups so uncomfortable that I really don't bother either.

[fencerbill]

There is actually a valid reason for parents to want teenage men to wear chest protectors as well as the women.

I am referring to the several accidents, I believe in soccer and in baseball, where an impact to the sternum area has caused the heart to stop.

I understand some recipients have been saved by CPR but some have died.

[Spike327]

Yeah, the sudden cardiac arrest problem is frightening, especially since the kids that die from it seem to have perfectly healthy and athletic hearts.

It seems like in order to disrupt the heart's rythym you'd need to give about the same amount of force to the sternum as a compression (like in CPR). I just don't think the tip of a foil (or even really an epee) could actually depress the sternum that much. I'd believe that a solid shot with the guard or a collision during a fleche could do it, but I'd also believe that the plastic chest protector would still give enough to compress the area over the heart.

But anyway, has anyone ever heard of this happening in fencing?

[Torg]

Originally Posted by Spike327

But anyway, has anyone ever heard of this happening in fencing?

i've only heard of a couple cases of this throughout all sports. and if you live your life afraid that a tap in the chest could stop your heart, you've got other problems to worry about.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Torg

given the number of times someone is hit in a tournament or practice multiplied by the number of fencers and the number of practices or tournaments per year, that's a huge number when compared to a handful of injuries. (by the way, in the 3 years i have been fencing, i have not encountered any individual who has withstained such an injury when using equipment properly). if it were a safety issue, the FIE would require them. obviously it's not.

Really? It's already been mentioned on this thread alone of people who have cracked ribs, and other injuries that the plastic plate protected against.

I once was on the receiving end of a very painful shin hit. It was deep bruise. It swelled so large, that I had trouble walking for a few days. In addition, my shin was so tender to the touch, that the next few months during tournaments and practice I wore a shin guard. Some people questioned my 'machismo', but I felt that being healthy was far more important than what someone else thought of my manhood.

Originally Posted by Torg

again, a cup is a personal choice. i have never been hit there, and i remember from my baseball days how uncomfortable cups are. if someone wants to use extra protection, by all means let them. however, the likelihood of them actually saving your life (or future kids' lives, as it were) when the cloth equipment doesn't is so inconceivably small that it really isn't an issue.

Actually, if you search DHCjr's posts, he can point to the rule that requires a cup for men. I doubt anyone will ever get checked, but it is a rule. As far as comfort, there have been some amazing advances in safety equipment. The new generation is far more comfortable than you can imagine. As for the chances of getting injured, if I can avoid any injury by wearing cheap, available safety equipment, I will.

Originally Posted by Torg

there have been 7 deaths due to fencing in the past 70 years. i think that's a fine risk to take for the sake of comfort, given that safety standards are now higher than they were when more than half of those deaths occurred.

Unless, of course, you or a loved one is one of the 7.

Also, a puntcure need not be fatal to do a lot of damage. Nor do cracked ribs, deep bruises that can keep you out of action, etc...

And with the cost of health care these days...

Also remember that FIE equipment Didn't exist until after the Smirnov incident. One high profile accident is all that the incentive the FIE needs to provide stricter regulations. But, in many people's minds, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of trouble. Are they wussies or are they smart?

Look, I'm not saying that people shouldn't cross the street ever, I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with someone using easily available protective equipment. It's their health, it's their piece of mind, and isn't like these chest protectors are uncommon, hard to get, expensive, etc...

[rory]

I've actually worn one, some time ago.
It reduced bruising massively, but made it harder to breathe and made me very hot. I don't have any evidence either way in the cloth vs. plastic debate, but I'm sure that wearing one is *safer* than not wearing one.

However, in foil, a chest plate gives you an unfair advantage.
If the FIE ever mandates their use, great - everyone will be equal. But for some to wear them purely as a means of making it harder to hit them - that's tantamount to cheating.

And if you turn up opposite me wearing one in foil, without a valid medical reason for wearing it, I'm going to ask you to take it off. If you don't, I may or may not call you a cheat to your face, but it's certainly going to make we want to beat you even more.

They're a nasty, dirty slimy tactic and either we should all be wearing them or none of us should.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Spike327

Yeah, the sudden cardiac arrest problem is frightening, especially since the kids that die from it seem to have perfectly healthy and athletic hearts.

It seems like in order to disrupt the heart's rythym you'd need to give about the same amount of force to the sternum as a compression (like in CPR). I just don't think the tip of a foil (or even really an epee) could actually depress the sternum that much. I'd believe that a solid shot with the guard or a collision during a fleche could do it, but I'd also believe that the plastic chest protector would still give enough to compress the area over the heart.

But anyway, has anyone ever heard of this happening in fencing?

I *saw* this once, but everyone (and by everyone, I mean her coaches, who were right there) knew she had a pre-existing heart condition, so those on the scene knew what they were dealing with immediately. Might be the strangest thing I've ever seen -- a direct lunge to the centre of the chest, and the girl goes as stiff as a board and drops like she's been shot.

Ambulence arrived very quickly, and she was OK in the end.

[remise]

Two fencers I know wear them for medical reasons. One has a pacemaker and the other has a feeding tube. None of these fencers give a d@^* about timing, or its affect on timing. They only care about safety.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by rory

However, in foil, a chest plate gives you an unfair advantage.
If the FIE ever mandates their use, great - everyone will be equal. But for some to wear them purely as a means of making it harder to hit them - that's tantamount to cheating.

This debate has been covered before, so I'll simply say:

Everyone is equal, unless you have a different definition of equal than the one I'm used to. You have the same choice as every other fencer out there. Cheating is when someone breaks a rule, not when someone follows a rule, and currently the FIE allows fencers to wear the chest plate underneath the lame and jacket.

In addition, if I wore one, I wouldn't search to give you a 'valid' medical reason, because I wouldn't wear one to appease you.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by achilleus

currently the FIE allows fencers to wear the chest plate underneath the lame and jacket.

And plastron.

[rcmatthews]

By the way, I was being slightly facetious, though I myself do not wear one.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by kalivor

And plastron.

And over the t-shirt is it?

Being an epee fencer, I find the whole thing ridiculous. I mean, to me, the timings should be fixed instead of this whole, 'if you wear extra safety equipment you're a cheater', but whatever...

[keropie]

Originally Posted by achilleus

And over the t-shirt is it?

Being an epee fencer, I find the whole thing ridiculous. I mean, to me, the timings should be fixed instead of this whole, 'if you wear extra safety equipment you're a cheater', but whatever...

hear hear... dumb timings... rules should not create new rules as a consequence of existing... ~sigh~ dumb FIE ppl, not even listening to their own experts (SEMI) and making unilateral decisions... oh well, such is life sometimes...

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by achilleus

And over the t-shirt is it?

Being an epee fencer, I find the whole thing ridiculous. I mean, to me, the timings should be fixed instead of this whole, 'if you wear extra safety equipment you're a cheater', but whatever...

Hmmm ... I don't know about that in the U.S. The original decision by the FIE required it to be under the plastron for women, and against the skin for men.

According to the British fencing website, though, the last paragraph of m.25.4 in the rulebook has been changed to "The use of breast/chest protectors (made of metal or some rigid material) is compulsory for women and optional for men. At foil, this breast/chest protector must be worn below the protective plastron."

Given that the USFA doesn't have either rule in their version of the rulebook, I've no idea what would be acceptable at a USFA competition.