a suggestion:

[Arturo]

I know this is like beating a dead horse, but they show international table tennis-- No fencing?
I love to see asians hitting small plastic balls at each other as much as the next guy.... Why not asians trying to hit each other with 35inch long pieces of steel?

I also saw a Magic Card game on ESPN 2; come on!!! Does anyone know why don't they put our sport on TV?

has anyone thought of starting a petition? Perhaps clubs that host tournaments can ask the participants to sign a petition.... If all the clubs represented here in this board pool all the signatures, perhaps we can get something going...


just a thought,

Arturo.

[Kodiak Kid]

I just watched the 1999 (?) (or was it 1998?)World Championships in Seoul, South Korea on videotape. It was a gas! If I be real objective and critcal, I would say the answer to your question is this:
The rules are complex, the action is hard to follow because it's too fast, you can't understand what they are saying and the competitors look kind of like sissys.

I used my remote to replay about half the touches. It was the only way I could see what was happening. No doubt ESPN, with all their video tricks and artistry could enhance the viewability (is that a word?)but the solutions to the rules issue would require a lot of changes. Every time the possibility of a rule change comes up there is a collective wail that the sport is evolving for the worse. So, round and round we go....

[Methix]

My other theory on this (along with it being too fast and complex for people to watch) is that people like to watch something they can do. Most everyone has played table tennis before. Anyone can go out and try to throw a ball into a basket. Since people have some innate ability to play basketball or football, they enjoy watching people that are really good at it. People don't naturally know how to wield a blade, and since most people haven't ever tried fencing, they can't relate to the people they're watching on TV. Anyways, that's just my thought. It's kind of funny how whenever you tell people you fence the response is almost always "Oh WOW!, how cool!!" but so few people ever actually try it...

[swordsen]

Espn2 will show fencing as soon as some fencing supplier/manufactorer puts up the money to sponser the program. And it won't happen before that.

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Kodiak Kid:
<strong>I just watched the 1999 (?) (or was it 1998?)World Championships in Seoul, South Korea on videotape. It was a gas! If I be real objective and critcal, I would say the answer to your question is this:
The rules are complex, the action is hard to follow because it's too fast, you can't understand what they are saying and the competitors look kind of like sissys.

I used my remote to replay about half the touches. It was the only way I could see what was happening. No doubt ESPN, with all their video tricks and artistry could enhance the viewability (is that a word?)but the solutions to the rules issue would require a lot of changes. Every time the possibility of a rule change comes up there is a collective wail that the sport is evolving for the worse. So, round and round we go....</strong><hr></blockquote>


The basic premise of fencing is simple: hit the guy. That's the grabber for any viewer. Forget about explaining the arcane right-of-way rules. If they can show Magic: The Gathering on ESPN, where the rules are just as (if not more) difficult to understand, how come they can't show fencing?

The action is easy to follow, even without the slow-mo. Just look at the face of the competitor who is smiling and who is sullen to realize who got hit and who didn't. The Seoul tapes (if you got them from me) contained just the team sabre and team foil (for men and women), I believe. The team foil between China and France is about as suspenseful as anything, with China ahead for most of the match, until L'Hotelier pulls back in the second-to-last bout, and then Plumenail coming back ahead, only to go behind to the Chinese 44-43, and then getting the next two touches. What explanation is needed to see his beaming face with the dejected look of the chinese fencer?

As for the play-by-play, yes, James Chambers, the british announcer is dense as lead. Everything is a parry-riposte. People know these words, even if they don't use them in everyday language. Ordinary US citizens know what "parry" and "riposte" means, at least in a colloquial term. Using them correctly in the context of the actions will help reinforce their knowledge of the words' usage. Basically, the announcer needs to say, "Attack, counter-attack, parry (riposte), and on-target (off-target)." That's pretty much the vocabulary needed. Throw in the phrase, "right of way" in appropriate times and there should be zero reasons why novices can't understand it.

As for sissies. How much more sissy can one get with a group of Magic: The Gathering players?

[swordsen]

the difference of course being that millions (well maybe not millions but Lots and Lots) of people play Magic. And the company that manufactors Magic (wizards of the coast??) will spend the money on advertising to make it worth the time for ESPN2 to show it.
We on the other hand do not have the built in audience nor do we have some company willing to spend the advertising money needed.

[kms]

An amusing anecdote:

Staying in a hotel one night in London I zapped through the channels and stopped on Eurosport because they were sending.. speed chess.

Now, I'm a hobby chess player, have a few books on the subject, read newspaper columns, and generally love the game. But televised speed chess was one of the most involuntarily laughable travesties of TV time I've seen.

To make it 'interesting' the commentators panted out all their commentary in an out-of-breath highly-over-excited tone. "My god! LOOK at the way his bishop just RADIATES GIGANTIC BEAMS OF POWER over the entire A1-F8 diagonal. He's really DOMINATING THE BOARD -- but OH MY GOD, THE F PAWN IS ADVANCING!!!"

Of course, broadcasting Magic The Gathering sounds far worse.

[Zelda]

Kms, thats hilarous!

[Haze]

Hehe, yeah, I miss the sometimes cheesyness of British Eurosport - don't get to watch it at university - I miss watching sumo the most... no, really...

[Purple Fencer]

[quote]Originally posted by Haze:
<strong>Hehe, yeah, I miss the sometimes cheesyness of British Eurosport - don't get to watch it at university - I miss watching sumo the most... no, really... </strong><hr></blockquote>

I remember the time I spent in England in '86. Watching pro darts on the BBC. BIG buys swig a pint, stagger to the line, throw three perfect darts into the triple-20 slot, stagger back and draw another pint.

[MikeHarm]

Has anyone tried to actually ya know, produce a show on fencing before for tv and market it to the tv or cable stations? It seems like we're kinda sitting on our butts, hoping that someone else will do it instead of being proactive on the matter which I don't think is going to work.

[Stryder]

MikeHarm-

Try <a href="http://www.escrime-tv.com" target="_blank">www.escrime-tv.com</a> They have something there you can watch with Realplayer. I haven't seen it because Realplayer is the devil's work. Tell me if it's any good.

BTW: The rules of football and basketball are infinately more complex than those of foil. People watch because they care who wins and they care who wins because they watched it last week and last year. Fencing needs little more than less whining by fencers and more high-Q camera work to make it exciting to the layman.
Fencing is cool.
It is not cool only in the eyes of fencers, it is cool in the eyes of anyone who likes sports.
Fencing contains all the drama of any reverse layup by Jordan or TD pass by Favre or even a forehand winner by Agassi. It just happens a little faster in fencing and people sometimes miss it. That doesn't stop them from watching hockey.
It IS a little intimidating. But that's only because it is unfamiliar to most people. They have bought into the idea that it has some complex rules of play and cannot be understood by the uninitiate.

Where'd they get that idea, guys?

Lose the mystique. When people ask you what is going on tell them "The guy on the left is trying to hit the guy on the right. And vice-versa."

I hereby forbid any mention of duelling conventions or ancient rituals or the evolution of fencing. It is a sport. Go play.

This has been another episode of "The way it is." By Stryder. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Fencing.net or it's managment.

[Inquartata]

I don't think it's the complexity of the rules as much as it is the oddity of them---ROW, for instance---and the sheer speed with which the blades can move ( and they're relatively tough to watch as opposed to a large orange ball, at least to the uninitiated ). I mean, look how long it takes some people's perceptions to get up to speed enough to direc---er, referee well. What nonparticipatory fan is going to be patient that long?

But we've hashed this subject to death a thousand times without coming to any satisfactory conclusions about the real reasons why the Powers-That-Be continue to give fencing the cold shoulder. I doubt we're going to solve it all of a sudden tonight...

[Pierfrancesco]

[quote]Originally posted by Stryder:
<strong>Try <a href="http://www.escrime-tv.com" target="_blank">www.escrime-tv.com</a> They have something there you can watch with Realplayer. I haven't seen it because Realplayer is the devil's work. Tell me if it's any good.</strong><hr></blockquote>

For some reason, the embedded Realvideo doesn't work for me so i just downloaded all the files manually through Go!Zilla. Theres some good stuff on there, although the video quality varies a bit. The best one i found was the Challenge International Foil, video is nice and smooth.

[Govinda]

you guys are all wrong wanting espn to show fencing
instead we need to take off the dummy tips and wires and masks and sell it to fox.
if there was a chance of someone bleeding all over the place or getting killed or an eye poked out, they'd be all over it, like survivor with weapons.

[MikeHarm]

Ya know, the matches in the Schlaeger societies, with people getting sliced up would be custom made for great tv ratings. Bloody, dramatic, real live people, scary to watch, I think fox would love it. I know I'd tune in.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: MikeHarm ]</p>

[Haze]

[quote]Originally posted by Purple Fencer:
<strong>

I remember the time I spent in England in '86. Watching pro darts on the BBC. BIG buys swig a pint, stagger to the line, throw three perfect darts into the triple-20 slot, stagger back and draw another pint.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

ah, darts. Haven't seen that on BBC for a while. I think its the staggering that makes them pros. Now you've reminded me of Bullseye... "Iiiiiin one..." You probably have no idea what i'm talking about... Gav... Steve... anyone.... Bullseye?

[Gav]

Yep.

You get nothing for 2 in a bed (OO-ERR). A bunch of hopeless working class idiots get patronised by a miners social comedian and they get to go home with BULLY'S special mug. I loved it!!! The BBC is rebroadcasting it's "I love..." series. It's mentioned on the 80's decade.

BTW I meant "working class idiots" in a totally friendly way.

I started a post on this very subject about 6 months ago. I don't know why the BBC (or Channel 4) won't show Fencing. They can't compete with the big satellite and digital broadcasters (on football for example), so I don't know why they don't try somethng else. I tried going to the Beebs site but it's huge. Couldn't figure out where to send suggestions.

[Gav]

P.S. I know someone involved with Magic te Gathering. He's a top level judge in the UK. We don't speak as much as we used to as he's been totally consumed by it. He used to be a fencer too. And yes he does watch it on TV. I've tried the game and I did play it for a while. It's fun. I don't get the total obsession that it's followers display. It's a fan thing.

[swordsen]

In many cases we are our own worst enemies in making fencing popular. To many fencers thrive of the idea that it is too complex for the average peasent to understand. It makes them feel superior. the rules of fencing are not any more complex then the rules of any other sport. (How many people figure out offsides in soccer?)
How many people care?
I have explained ROW in three minutes to people watching and had them grasp it completely. What's more I have had them look at me and ask if the director/refree just messed up the call shortly thereafter. (I thought he did too)
It is a real pity when you take a sport that when mentioned to people they tend to go "Wow, that's cool" and make such a complete hash of it as we have.