Fencing - a spectator sport?

[BrisGirl]

I have received varying views on fencing as a sport for a passing spectator, as I am being new to the world of fencing, personally I love watching it, and most of the women I speak to, feel the same.

But I had a totally different conversation with a man, and he painted a picture of complete lack of interest by the public.

I would like to know your thoughts and opinions on fencing and the public view in general on fencing..........is it something they would go and see without the draw of having to know someone in competition?

[Purple Fencer]

One of the major problems is the somewhat arcane nature of the sport. With three different weaponm target areas, and rules, it's confusing enough for those who actively participate.

Plus there's the fact that American-friendly sports tend to be the run real fast/throw real far/put the rock in the hole type...much easier to understand.

An average person does not need to understand the deep nuances of a sophisticated basketball defense, or many of the rules of golf....but he DOES need to have at least a slight familiarity with right of way to understand and follow foil or sabre.

It can be done....but it takes time to educate the unwashed masses....

[achilleus]

IMO, the most interesting aspects of fencing tend to be the hardest to see as a spectator, especially on TV.

My favorite story is a final bout I had with a large group which included experienced fencers. Midway through the bout, which was close, my opponent just ran at me. It caught off guard, and I didn't even move my feet. I was saved by hand speed, which caught the attack in a sweeping six, and since my opponent closed so fast, I had nowhere to riposte, but with a flick to the back. An unusual touch in epee, but it was a one light action for me. My opponent was stunned, and muttered 'Wha...how...,the back?' The audience oohed, aaahed, and clapped. I sat there thinking, 'Lucky, lucky, lucky.'

The touch right after, I moved my opponent around, got my opponent right where I wanted, and made my attack. My opponent was so lost, like a deer in headlights, that no parry or movement was even attempted, and I hit with a long straight lunge to the body. And I yelled. I controlled and manipulated my opponent and executed a perfectly time, picture perfect lunge to the body in epee. The audience yawned. I had one teammate, and one Russian ex-olympian coach who mentione what a great touch that was. Everyone else, 'That was an awesome flick.' 'How'd you hit the back?' 'Man you must be strong', 'Can you teach me that'. The audience included some experienced fencers...

In other words, the beauty of fencing is very subtle and highly subjective. It's not for everyone.

[edew]

It's not for amateur spectators, but for the cognescenti, we all know. It's the same with no-hit baseball and NASCAR spectators who really understand the sport (and not there just to ogle the babes in the center field getting tanked).

Those who understand the subtleties and finesse involved in this or any other sport will appreciate both the flick to the back and the control and dominance for a simple lunge hit.

But the only way for spectators who aren't fencers to appreciate the various forms is to show the sport often.

For example, most of us are not (American) football players. Virtually no women are football players. And even though a great number play football on the streets or in the backyard, we really don't understand the intricacies involved in play calling, fakes, and what-nots. But when we all sit down to watch the big game, many of us know whether a play succeeded because of finesse and creative play calling or because of plain luck. Of course, it helps to have John Madden up there with the yellow pen marking up the action for us and noting that the left tackle pulled out behind the guard instead of blocking the defensive end, thereby creating a hole for the running back to jump through.

So, for fencing, a knowledgeable person like John Madden with an emotional, but professorial voice can help explain why your simple lunge was such a magnificent move while the flick was just plain quick reflexes that managed to succeed.

[KD5MDK]

I think the problems are that:

1) Foil and sabre would need the conventions explained before showing a bout, and that could get somewhat complicated.

2) Epee doesn't take much explanation, but there as so many touches which are absolutely impossible to see, that it would take slow-replay and lots of time to let audiences tell what happened.

Could it be done? I think so, but it will take a substantial amount of initial investment to do convincingly.

[Purple Fencer]

Oh THANKS, Eric! Now I've got John Madden in my head commentating on a foil action in that "Captain Obvious" method of his....

What we'd need would be someone with a good public recognition factor who actually KNEW the sport a little....actor Jerry O'Connel for example, since he WAS a sabre fencer in his Jr days.

Or get Susie Paxton in there and let he use the proper terminology instead of telling her she can't say "parry" but has to say "block" instead (see her Athens coverage....)

And DON'T get someone who uses tennis terms.....good LORD that guy commentator was irritating as hell during Mariel's semi-finals bout..."She's got 5 match points!" I wanted to reach through the TV and strangle him!

[Greg]

Fencers like to watch it, but one problem is that the sport is so fast you cannot see hits being made. Unlike boxing or other martial arts, you can see blows, kicks or punches land and also see the reaction of the party that was hit. With fencing, you seldom see the point land - just a light go on and the referee stopping the action. I don't think the finese part is enough to appeal to a wide audience to encourage viewing.

[edew]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Oh THANKS, Eric! Now I've got John Madden in my head commentating on a foil action in that "Captain Obvious" method of his....

What we'd need would be someone with a good public recognition factor who actually KNEW the sport a little....actor Jerry O'Connel for example, since he WAS a sabre fencer in his Jr days.

Or get Susie Paxton in there and let he use the proper terminology instead of telling her she can't say "parry" but has to say "block" instead (see her Athens coverage....)

And DON'T get someone who uses tennis terms.....good LORD that guy commentator was irritating as hell during Mariel's semi-finals bout..."She's got 5 match points!" I wanted to reach through the TV and strangle him!

I rarely say parry at my club. Block is perfectly fine.

[edew]

Originally Posted by Greg

Fencers like to watch it, but one problem is that the sport is so fast you cannot see hits being made. Unlike boxing or other martial arts, you can see blows, kicks or punches land and also see the reaction of the party that was hit. With fencing, you seldom see the point land - just a light go on and the referee stopping the action. I don't think the finese part is enough to appeal to a wide audience to encourage viewing.

What we can use is this new fangle thingee called slo-mo and freeze frame.

It's not like people can see balls and strikes, either at the stadium or on TV, without some slo-mo plus some honking telephoto lens.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Personally, I enjoy watching exciting epee bouts, esp if I feel like I know one of the fencers.

[hpfencing]

Public awareness is all I have to say..........

No one even know any basics so it's hard to watch. Everyone grows up with basics of Basketball and Football so everyone knows them and understands them enough to watch.

Public Awareness... Wouldn't it be nice if the American population grew up seeing and understanding basic fencing....

[Greg]

Originally Posted by edew

What we can use is this new fangle thingee called slo-mo and freeze frame.

It's not like people can see balls and strikes, either at the stadium or on TV, without some slo-mo plus some honking telephoto lens.

Sure, but who wants to watch slow motion review of every single hit - boring. What about watching a live bout that's not on TV? I don't know about you, but I have no problem seeing strikes and balls at a baseball game without need for a replay.

[eze]

Since most spectator sports in the US involve following the action of a ball that is somewhere between the size of a fist (baseball, tennis) to a head (football, basketball), vs a tiny fencing tip/narrow fencing blade--one futuristic solution might be to have "Smart Uniforms" .

The hit registers on the uniform with a big red spot. The spot then fades within a second or two.

Even the most uneducated viewer could get some enjoyment out of that.


------------------------------------------------------

It might be a good project for a fencer at MIT.

Articles about Smart Clothes:

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/co...-clothing1.htm

http://www.primidi.com/2003/10/13.html
.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Greg

Fencers like to watch it, but one problem is that the sport is so fast you cannot see hits being made. Unlike boxing or other martial arts, you can see blows, kicks or punches land and also see the reaction of the party that was hit. With fencing, you seldom see the point land - just a light go on and the referee stopping the action. I don't think the finese part is enough to appeal to a wide audience to encourage viewing.

Agreed. Once, I invited my brother out to watch a practice fencing session, in order to maybe get him interested in the sport. I don't consider myself to be that great of a fencer, but after giving him a demonstration bout he said to me, "Wow, that was incredible! You moved, the light came on and you stopped but I never saw what happened. You guys move really fast!"

A person who fences knows what to watch for. A person who doesn't fence finds it hard to follow the action. Without that ability to follow along, many people find the action visually impressive, but not something that will hold their interest.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by edew

I rarely say parry at my club. Block is perfectly fine.

Are you serious?
I mean, forget for a second the noobification that engenders, how does it affect the refereeing?

Attack is blocked, riposte is counter blocked?
Do you even use riposte? That's more obscure than parry. I can picture it now.
Counter block, counter re-attack-again. ?

[keith]

Originally Posted by eze

Since most spectator sports in the US involve following the action of a ball that is somewhere between the size of a fist (baseball, tennis) to a head (football, basketball), vs a tiny fencing tip/narrow fencing blade--one futuristic solution might be to have "Smart Uniforms" .

The hit registers on the uniform with a big red spot. The spot then fades within a second or two.

Even the most uneducated viewer could get some enjoyment out of that.

Two words; Fox Puck.

[eze]

Except low scoring is what bores most non-hockey fans I've talked to, not the inability to see the puck.

Originally Posted by keith

Two words; Fox Puck.

[ninjafencer]

I'll throw my few cents in...
Fencing, as it is now, cannot be a spectator sport. You guys have mentioned a lot of reasons for this, such as crazy-to-follow rules and speed of play.
And that really sucks, because I would love to see fencing turned into something bigger and wider then it is.
I think the sport needs to be altered. Maybe turn it into 5 on 5 "arena of death!" type matches! Or maybe turn electric fencing into REAL electric fencing, so the audience can see the impact of hits like they do in boxing and other sports. Probably not a good idea for the older fencers.. hmm.
Maybe have two leagues? Classic fencing and some new form that is audience friendly?
It would probably be easier if wireless fencing were mainstream. I've heard a few things about "circular" fencing. But picture, you and four of your closest teammates, waging fencing-war against 5 other brutes from a different club, all in a big circle/rectangle... with walls! What if they circle around you and close in? What formation could you use to get yourself out of it? Perhaps you should double-team some of their guys? Maybe do a running leap off one of your own for a super fleche! Wouldn't really work with right of way stuff...
Just me thoughts.
Don't kill me.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

The potential is there, at least for live audiences. Here's the way they did it in Orleans this past weekend at the WS Senior World Cup:

1. They had posters all over town. Literally. There were billboards, there were nicely designed advertisements in kiosks everywhere.

2. They had a raised, lighted finals strips in the center of a basketball-sized arena for the semis and finals. There were two floor TV cameras, plus a big screen projection TV off to the side, armed with a slo-motion playbeack deck. Very basic equipment set-up. Funny thing...the TV replay guys were missing when it came time to start...so the matches waited until they could be found to get going.

3. Before the final three matches, they called out each pair of contestants from the round of 8, and showed a short video highlight clip of the match, with live commentary from the MC.

4. Very clever idea: there was some sort of exhibition between a couple of young saber fencers and a pair of epee fencer kids from the local club...with trophies awarded. There were probably 50 or more young kids in full whites there for the opening ceremonies, which included making a pathway lined with raised sabers for the final four ladies to run thru on their way to the strip for introductions...with three of the four finalists smacking their own saber tips into the line of the kid's as they ran towards the stage, big grins on their faces. The crowd went wild.

Sidenote: bring 50 kids in uniform to participate in the event, and most of their parents/friends/relatives will come as well....good for the head count.

5. During the matches, there was a live announcer commenting on the point over the slo-mo replay...and the audience seemed to have no problem cheering or groaning at the appropriate parts.

6. The strip had a huge full length backdrop. There were so many people attending that, at the last minute, the organizers knocked down the backdrop (which was covered with advertising logos) and cleared the back of the strip so the overflow could go to the other side of the arena and watch. The place became filled with probably a thousand fans surrounding the action.

For one night in Orelans, fencing was definately a spectator sport.

[ninjafencer]

Sounds awesome.