balestra: how effective is it?

[Twinkletoes]

I'd like some feedback from seasoned fencers about the
use of the balestra-lunge attack.



From my point of view, I see someone doing a balestra
and I immediatly think: "here comes the lunge next" back up,
and parry riposte.

What actually makes it effective in a tactical situation? The rapid closing of distance? It's explosiveness? The fact that it looks like a ballet move?

Thanks in advance

Cheers

[fencingaddict]

I normally just use the balestra to change my rhythm and throw my opponent off . . . balestra, small step judge distance . . .

[KD5MDK]

If they're giving you time to back up and parry-riposte, they're probably not doing it right. Specifically, given that you seem to be able to do that, they ought to incorporate a feint or slow entension to avoid your parry.

[slain4sooth]

'rapid closure of distance', i think; done right you keep accelerating through the lunge... sort of like taking two steps with the same foot, isn't it -- a one-footed fleche! lol! ballestra takes less time than a fleche because you just start immediately without shifting your balance back and forth to get some convetional running mechanings started and stopped, but unlike fleche, you can't keep chasing them without at least a bit of recovery.

[bigdawg2121]

I also find it to generally be successful as a simple attack (since it's constantly accelerating, much like a patinando) but I also use it change tempo, or even just to change for the sake of change, if I'm in a rut. (e.g. you're in a bout, especially a pool, and you can't seem to even get a simulataneous call [saber or foil], change from advance lunge, or *insert preparatory motion here* advance lunge to jump lunge)

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

From my point of view, I see someone doing a balestra
and I immediatly think: "here comes the lunge next" back up,
and parry riposte.

Then your hypothetical opponent isn't hiding his intentions well (or correctly executing the balestra). Consider this sequence: advance, appel, advance, appel+lunge. By appel+lunge I mean balestra.

Any balestra is a change in tempo. All the usual observations about the tactical employment of a change in tempo therefore apply. Remember you can condition responses in your opponent. If he reacts to the appel with a parry then that is valuable information.

[WhipLash]

Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

From my point of view, I see someone doing a balestra
and I immediatly think: "here comes the lunge next" back up,
and parry riposte.

if you are thinking that, then the ballestra is effective, no? knowing that you know my lunge is coming, i would lunge short with a 2nd intention parry in mind, or do my feint with the ballestra and disengage your parry. besides, the ballestra can also be done without the lunge.

i learnt that the ballestra is good for changing the timing. if you are stepping back and forth and your opponent is keeping distance with you, a ballestra can often change the timing so that you are going forward while he is also stepping forward, thus closing distance.

Originally Posted by Durando

appel+lunge. By appel+lunge I mean balestra.

isn't the appel something like a quick stomp of the leading foot before the lunge? i always thought the appel and the ballestra were 2 different actions altogether.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by WhipLash

isn't the appel something like a quick stomp of the leading foot before the lunge? i always thought the appel and the ballestra were 2 different actions altogether.

You're right--I was imprecise, probably owing to the ambiguity French teaching has toward the balestra. There's no specific term and it isn't practiced as a descrete unit of footwork, at least in my club. So scratch what I said and let's say "forward jump." So, Advance, Forward Jump, Advance, Forward Jump+Lunge.

Oh, a similar ambiguity cropped up the other day with the patinando--a term seemingly unknown below a certain level of fencer here. So, we're practicing adv+lunge and the MdA points out that I'm missing out on maybe ten centimeters of attack distance. "So you want me to do a patinando then?" was my question. "A what?" says he. So in my club the fencers don't make the distinction and the good ones adjust the travel of their rear leg accordingly.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

In a bout, I've found the balestra to be useless. As a plyometric footwork exercise though, I've found it useful.

[pgepps]

A lot of guys around here are more experienced than I, but. . . .

For me, balestra and similar sudden changes of tempo are essential. I'm not nearly so quick on my feet as many fencers, so after a few points even less-experienced fencers can start to pull away from me.

By concentrating on masking my intentions, though, I can use balestra or appel + lunge to invalidate my opponent's learning. The hesitation or wasted retreats or parries, plus the possiblity of using my reach to good effect, helps to negate some natural advantages of a smaller, more athletic fencer of equal or less experience.

It is also noisy and sudden, and makes my size work to my advantage, if the fencer is a little susceptible to psych-outs.

None of which helps me when the fencer is of equal or greater experience and more athletic, of course--though it does give me a bit more dignity when I go down.

Cheers,
PGE

[Joe biebel]

I think a Balestra in foil is quite useful. Because of it's explosive nature it is never seen as preparation. It is what my coach would expect me to do if my more subtle attacks were being perceived as preparation or simultaneous actions. I find it quite easy to abort without making the lunge if conditions seem unfavorable after the jump.

[Adler]

How do you define a Ballestra?

Hungarian/Italian way.

Ballestra= Jump and Lunge.

or

French Way.

Ballestra= Jump with an appel.

[gladius]

Following from Maestro Bernacchi


Passo balestra or balestra step (spelling note: it is balestra with one "l") is a step executed with a little jump forward (or even in place) with both feet at the same time, keeping your on guard stance. It is usually followed by a lunge or a fleche and it is used to load up the legs like a spring gathering potential energy and using the elastic energy afterwards to make the following lunge more effective and dynamic.

It is mainly used in foil, even though it is described also for saber and epee. It is after all a leg movement, therefore it can be used in any weapon. It is useful in foil because it gives a minimum of preparation to the attack even though the referees almost never read this move this way since obviously the lunge follows very quickly the preparation step executed balestra style. It is also difficult to read a possible discontinuity between the two, unless it is executed very slowly.

It is also useful in saber to enter in measure (shorten the distance) in the final part of the attack. It is not frequent in epee but for a feint possibly executed with the body.

Passo balestra is different from passo patinando, which is the normal step (=passo) executed without jumping, shifting one foot at a time.

Both these steps can be used to change the rhythm in execution, to get those rhythm variations which allow you to take control over your opponent [see discussion in the lesson "Tempo, Distance, and Speed," in the articles section of Fencing.net].

As durando wrote, to execute a balestra step, for instance after having executed other regular steps, this change constitutes a quick variation in the rhythm giving a hard time to the opponent to maintain his synchrony with the fencer executing this step.

But one can change the rhythm with regular steps also -- probably even better -- so it's better to concentrate on the kinetic aspects of the balestra step. It is useful in particular to give more elan to the subsequent movement. If executed by accentuating the stomping noise of the feet, it can make an "audible" feint, another distraction to load the system of the opponent.

Today it is not taught as much as in the past to the young fencers. Both the Italian and French school call it the same way, but the terminology which is not official, i.e., typical of fencing treatises, describes it also as jump forward, jump in place, etc.

As some of the previous posters pointed out, the risk in executing this step is that it is done in two tempos: (1) the step and (2) the following lunge/fleche. Therefore, you run the risk to unwillingly teleprompt your opponent what you are going to do next. In the first tempo, the step, the opponent will already know that very likely we will follow with a lunge.

Passo patinando means that at all time of the execution of the step at least one of the two feet is in contact with the ground (like speed-walking v/s running: in running there is an instant when both feet are in the air).

Passo patinando is preferable in actions that keep the contact between the blades (fili, trasporti, engagements, etc.). Passo balestra is preferable when the action is associated to a hit between the blades (e.g., beat and straight thrust). The reason is that if one executes the balestra step while keeping the acquired contact between the blades, he would run into more difficulties than in the case he'd execute a step with more fluid dynamics like the patinando.

[needle]

I find ballestra a very useful reconnaissance tool in epee - ballestra with feint or beat-feint to draw that reflexive parry (or counter-attack)

[Sciurus-Rex]

Try turning your perspective around and consider a different angle: When you see a ballestra performed (successfully!) in a bout, it's rarely because the fencer decided beforehand, "I shall ballestra now." We only recognize the action as such in hindsight because that's the shorthand terminology fencing masters have ascribed to that particular combo.

The actual value of a balestra is as a training/teaching tool. It's a way to help new fencers learn how to break up footwork and tempo. Because once you reach a high enough level of skill proficiency, individual actions start to flow together in a coherent sequence that defies simple labels.

I may use a balestra or a balestra-like combination every so often, but darned if I think of it that way when it's happening. It's more like, "I startled So-and-So and caused him to do such-and-such reflexively so I could make the touch. ... Hmm? Yeah, I guess it was a balestra."

[slain4sooth]

well said mr. rex

[VELISARIOS]

The use of balestra is to change the tempo and with explosiveness touch your oponent.

[AllenJ]

We know that this type of thing was used historically. In some English texts its refered to as a "cocking step". The reason seems to have been for those described above: A quick change of distance and tempo/timing (which is really what swordplay is all about) and a feint to either discover an opponents reflex movement or bait them into covering an area so you can counter to another opening.

[epee1]

There's a guy in my club able to balestra with a simple beat 4 or 6 and hit his opponent's hand at will. You know it's coming at some point but he too fast to parry - I really hate it when he does that.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Originally Posted by epee1

There's a guy in my club able to balestra with a simple beat 4 or 6 and hit his opponent's hand at will. You know it's coming at some point but he too fast to parry - I really hate it when he does that.

Then don't parry.