Best Foil Point

[Joe biebel]

Well I have been using the new Leon Paul foil point for a couple (four actually, maybe 30, 10-15 touch matches) of practices, and I am very impressed. All of the main problems you see with other designs have been engineered out. The main features as I see it that make these points superior are:

A tough, thicker barrel. This allows the point to be held in by the set screws that don't need to be removed. The lack of a separate contact flange in the tip means that the screws only need to be "backed off" a little way in order to remove the point. Not having to take a chance on loosing a screw during tournament maintenance is a bonus. I really can't see breaking or even deforming one of these babies.

Larger thicker flush mounted screws. So far not the slightest damage and as I said previously no need to remove for maintenance.

Ultra smooth action on the tip.

No separate "peened" contact to pull off on the tip. I am real curious how they get the insulation on past this apparent 1-piece design on the tip shaft.

Springs that hold their tension accurately. I think the slightly shorter travel that these points have cause less flexing and weakening of the spring tension.

Nice wire, good contact. very little stretch. Will take a little getting used to during wiring jobs. Wired four blades, had one wire pull out of the contact before I started to exert pressure/tension on it.

The one thing I felt was weak in the design was at the bottom of the base where there is a flat to put a wrench for tightening the barrel. It is too small to be useful. Perhaps somewhere there is an accurate enough 5mm open-end wrench that will grip here without slipping. Don't like the thought of using a visegrip on the barrel, but I did, and no deformation!

The one weapon that I have been using showed some increased resistance when tested yesterday, but a quick cleaning with a Q-tip and it went right back to zero. Also despite some floor hits that left craters, the spring tension that I set at 550 grams was still right on the money.

Never been so impressed with a fencing product. He/she who invents last invents best.

I'm sure given enough time, I can find a way to break or damage one of these tips, I'll keep you posted.

[Craig]

Joe - Thanks for that post. I was very impressed with the Leon Paul foil points when I first started working with Barry, Alex and all there.

Are you using the standard Leon Paul point or the GT point? They both have the thicker barrell and sunk screws but the GT has a smoother travel.

LP also sells a 5mm wrench for use on their barrels, but I've always used vice grips with no damage to them.

Craig

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by Craig

Joe - Thanks for that post. I was very impressed with the Leon Paul foil points when I first started working with Barry, Alex and all there.

Are you using the standard Leon Paul point or the GT point? They both have the thicker barrell and sunk screws but the GT has a smoother travel.

LP also sells a 5mm wrench for use on their barrels, but I've always used vice grips with no damage to them.

Craig

I'm using the GT point, perhaps with this tough thick barrel I should just "get over" my fear of using a vice-grip. I will order a few LP wrenches next time I order any LP gear.

[hpfencing]

I might need to look into switching our club weapons over!

[kalivor]

I haven't used the Leon Paul GT point yet, but I've found the Schermasport screwless points to be superior to the standard French and German designs out there (and the older LP foil tips).

[CvilleFencer]

I have a love/hate relationship with the LP GT foil points. The first LP point I tried was the old design and I hated it. When they came out with the new style I was very impressed. After using them on and off for a year or so now I have basically went back to German for a couple of reasons. Joe lists a lot of the great things about the tip style (and Craig is right, the GT's are much smoother) so I will list the main problems I have seen.

On 3 or 4 out of about 12 of these tips I have had or that have been used by club mates, the sleeve on the tip begins to seperate from the core shaft. At first the tip starts to stick but it gets to the point where it is unuasable fairly quickly once that happens. Granted this only tends to happen on tips that have been used fairly hard for a few months, but it is not a problem I ever had with the Germans.

The screws frustrate me very much. The first few batches I used were very tough and durable. The last few screws that have came with the tips I have gotten I have had a hard time getting even a fine screwdriver in them to tighten them down. It is also not uncommon to have one split on me. No big deal unless it splits once it is halfway INSIDE the barrel. Once this happens, by the time I am able to get it out the screw hole of the barrel is stripped out and has to be thrown away and the weapon rewired. I had one strip about halfway in and the exposed screw head on one side broke off. On two others they split when they were being taken out for cleaning and both resulted in the weapon having to be rewired and the barrel being trashed.

The final problem that I have had is that the screws can be overtightened, or they can tighten up or loosen (granted fairly rare) during use. If they are to tight they tend to stick and can damage the tip. If they are two loose they can result in phantom off targets.

I like the feel and the thought behind these tips a lot. If I was not spending my own money/doing my own work they are probably what I would use on all my foils. Since that is not the case and they are more pricey than a German point and come with their own set of gremlins I have mostly gone back to using German tips and replacing the LP tips as they die.

I think they are a fair alternative to the German tips, but for me at least they are not the best solution. If LP starts to use a hardened screw and can go to a solid tip shaft design or use a more durable adhesive then I think these would be the best tips around. Until that happens though, you are trading one set of potential problems for another. At least IMHO and experiance.

[WhipLash]

i have been using the LP points for a year now. agree with joe fully. am really impressed with the smooth travel.

i've had the same problem with the tip but i managed to push it back into place and with 5ul of loctite it doesn't come off anymore. perhaps a stronger adhesive as cville suggested will help for new batches of tips?

never had problems with the screws splitting, though i had one that was somehow flattened, though i could still unscrew it. This may be because the screws are not totally flush with the barrel and still stick out a little. but because they are much larger than those used in other points, they flatten less easily and are easier to remove even if it happens.

i've had an additional problem, but the fault is not that of the point system. apparently the 1mm extension of the barrel past where the screw threads begin makes it difficult to screw onto my stm blade, and impossible for my BF. i had to file about 0.5mm off the bottom of the barrel to get it to fit my BF. of course, this reduces the flat edge by half. luckily my spanner could still grip the barrel and i was able to tighten it.

all things considered, IMHO the pros outweigh the cons and i'm using LP for all my blades. Over here everyone uses German tips so i've had to stock up on spare parts for my tips, but i guess it's worth it. German tips seem to need cleaning rather often, IMO.

[Amadeus]

do you have to screw the tiny screws into tiny holes in the tip, as in the French design, or can the tip be rotated any which way, like the german?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

do you have to screw the tiny screws into tiny holes in the tip, as in the French design, or can the tip be rotated any which way, like the german?

Any which way you want. Yet another plus of the basic design I suppose. It is quick and easy to make quick repair/replacements. Maybe if the problems I had with the screws are endimic of myself only perhaps I just got ahold of a bad couple batches of screws?

[WhipLash]

perhaps. you would need to check with barry. i got my screws almost half a year ago.

juz a thought: rotating the tip seems to tighten/loosen the spring a little. wonder if that could help borderline weapons to pass the weight test?

[Craig]

C'ville,

We saw the issue with the sleeve separating and that seems to have been an issue with a single batch of tips a few months ago. We've been through ours and it only seems to have happened with one batch. Barry is aware of that and has taken steps to rectify that issue.

As to the screws - I haven't seen that problem and I find the screws easier to work with than the German ones, but if you are seeing that issue then I'll make sure that Barry is aware so that he can look into it and see if there are any other improvements he can make.

Craig

[Joe biebel]

I haven't been using/abusing the points long enough to see a tip go bad and I would be most surprised to see a screw break. The screws are much thicker, better machined, (easier to get started in the threads of the barrel) and "seat" very nicely when they get all the way in than German or french style screws that I have seen. I no longer feel inclined to give them any "extra" torque to maintain solid contact with the floating contact that exists in the aforementioned German/French designs. There are less parts, less contacts, better machining, and obvious maintenance advantages to the design. One of the things that I expect to see as these points start to break is very easy repairs. I am hoping that the barrels and wires last the life of the blades. Especially with maraging blades, it is quite possible to rewire a blade several times in the lifetime of the blade. Though I am quite good at it, I will often get a problem with a barrel that forces me to rewire the blade. I don't mind replacing a tip from time to time, or tossing bad, deformed screws, but you have to be able to get them out. So, hopefully, Cvillefencer's problems with the screws are an anomoly that has been rectified.

[Joe biebel]

I am pretty sure that LP still has not designed the "perfect" point, but what I find encouraging is that LP will keep honing the idea and materials until they do get it right. I honestly feel like they are the "Company that Listens" and that any complaints I have, will help them get from where they are now to where they want to be.

[Barry Paul]

I must confess that when we produced the second batch of the new G.T. foil point complete, I thought that after 30 years we had produced the perfect foil point.

Unfortunately they are good but not yet perfect.

Problems already mentioned of the sleeve on the tip begins to separate from the core shaft, have I think been solved by increasing the interference fit of the parts and this particular problem seems now to have gone away. (They can be stuck back together with a small dab of lactate.)

What should be appreciated U.K. fencers are in the whole disinterested in looking after their foils or understanding how they work. Most competitions do not bother to weight test until the final. So foils are expected to work for ever with out any maintenance at all. Using German thin wall points is not a very attractive proposition without a knowledgeable amourer.

The solution of preventing wear on the screw tip by hardening the screws seemed to be work in three months trials with our top fencers, however they started to report high resistance and some intermittent white lights.

When the hardened screws (which are slightly golden in appearance) were examined they showed almost no wear at all, however the thread in contact with point collar had worn a grove in the softer material which then attracted dirt or debris which was the cause of the high resistance, simple cleaning solved the problem however the unique self cleaning action of the softer screws had been lost.

For the moment we have gone back to the softer screws with standard slot size.

An unforeseen consequence of the change to the hardened screws was that before if the top of the screw had become so badly damaged that it was impossible to use a screw driver on it or file a slot in it , you could just drive/hammer the screw into the point. Leaving a thread still on the foil barrel and the mangled screw inside the point, which could then extracted when the point top was removed. With the hardened screws this option was no longer possible.

There is also mention of the 5 mm slot being too small. To be honest we only added this because a few fencers found them useful. We never use a spanner to tighten them, we use an adapted three jaw drill chuck. If the point top is engaged properly on the thread the blade adhesive we use is also used as a thread lock and will never come loose in normal use. In one batch because I am paranoid of making changes which have unforeseen consequences (like weakening the foil base) we set the tolerance at 5.0 plus and minus .01. Now checking them we have found one batch made on the top tolerances and some spanners are reluctant to fit.

Now the F.I.E. have confirmed the continuation of the new timing we are working on the mark 3 G.T. top which will have some of the improvements and changes already mentioned but also prevent any shorting between the inner barrel and the point top. This shorting is we belive one of the causes of hits not registering while fencing with the new timing.

We are fully occupied moving so we hope to have beta testing samples in March for usual suspects. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Problems already mentioned of the sleeve on the tip begins to separate from the core shaft, have I think been solved by increasing the interference fit of the parts and this particular problem seems now to have gone away. (They can be stuck back together with a small dab of lactate.)

I haven't seen one yet, but is the tip of the shaft not swaged to keep the flange on?? That's one of my biggest complaints about the German/French ones...a simple procedre not done to probably save money...and the tips keep flying off. I have to swage all my tips by hand.

What should be appreciated U.K. fencers are in the whole disinterested in looking after their foils or understanding how they work.

Nothing new there...most fencers I encounter think the circuit works by magic...

There is also mention of the 5 mm slot being too small. To be honest we only added this because a few fencers found them useful. We never use a spanner to tighten them, we use an adapted three jaw drill chuck. If the point top is engaged properly on the thread the blade adhesive we use is also used as a thread lock and will never come loose in normal use. In one batch because I am paranoid of making changes which have unforeseen consequences (like weakening the foil base) we set the tolerance at 5.0 plus and minus .01. Now checking them we have found one batch made on the top tolerances and some spanners are reluctant to fit.

But what fencer will have the adapted drill chuck to use on their own gear? Better to put the flats on so armorers and fencers can work on the point without needing a specialized tool.

As far as the tolerances...incresase them...and it 5.1 +- .01....the differance won't affect the wrench...and if someone doesn't have a 5mm wrench, they can still se a pair of pliers....they just need something to grab on to.

[Barry Paul]

[quote=Purple Fencer]I haven't seen one yet, but is the tip of the shaft not swaged to keep the flange on?? That's one of my biggest complaints about the German/French ones...a simple procedre not done to probably save money...and the tips keep flying off. I have to swage all my tips by hand.

No the tip is one piece. so it can not come off.

[Purple Fencer]

[quote=Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

I haven't seen one yet, but is the tip of the shaft not swaged to keep the flange on?? That's one of my biggest complaints about the German/French ones...a simple procedre not done to probably save money...and the tips keep flying off. I have to swage all my tips by hand.

No the tip is one piece. so it can not come off.

Ahhh..good. There was another concern about the flange a fellow armorer had..any history of the flange being distorted by the screw??

[Joe biebel]

Here is a photo that shows the French, German, and LP screws, barrels, and tips. If LP can make barrels that won't squash or dent causing a rewire, I'm a customer. I don't mind replacing a tip (now and again) especially since there is no need to remove the screws completely. Barry, since the screws are relatively large and they don't normally have to be removed from the barrel for maintenance, have you thought about using non-magnetic metals. You might try a stainless steel screw. I wouldn't want to use nonmagnetic screws on other points, but the size, accuracy and ease of the threads on your screws and barrels make yours really easy to put in.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

Here is a photo that shows the French, German, and LP screws, barrels, and tips. If LP can make barrels that won't squash or dent causing a rewire, I'm a customer. I don't mind replacing a tip (now and again) especially since there is no need to remove the screws completely. Barry, since the screws are relatively large and they don't normally have to be removed from the barrel for maintenance, have you thought about using non-magnetic metals. You might try a stainless steel screw. I wouldn't want to use nonmagnetic screws on other points, but the size, accuracy and ease of the threads on your screws and barrels make yours really easy to put in.

Please, Barry don't. These screws are favorite for some Armorers fixing Epee. With an Epee and the open groove having a non-magnetic screw would be a problem. Leon Paul Foil and Epee screws are the same screw.