How do you define a "Strong" Local Tournament?

[DJ Apostrophe]

Because I'm a dork, I created the attached Excel Workbook.

There is one sheet with data (entries from our memorial day tournament), courtesy of FRED: http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=1335

I find the numbers interesting. To answer the question, "Which tournament of the three is the strongest?" One would, quite obviously, need to decide what determines "strength." Each of the three tournaments could be considered the strongest in its own right, depending on the criteria selected.

Is it Number of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Div I eligible Fencers? Percentage of A/B Fencers?

I just thought the numbers were interesting, and thought I'd share... comment away.

-w

[seak]

To take it even further, I decided to devise a (very) simple math formula to determine strenght. In this "formula" each A = 6 points each B = 5 so on so forth and each U = 1. This allows for size and strenght to be measured as well as relative strenght i.e. an A is better then a B. Therefore in this tournament foil = 107, sabre = 116 and epee = 164, hence epee is the strongest.

Wow that was pretty dorky

[keith]

Originally Posted by seak

...hence epee is the strongest.

... but you have not weighted for ratings between weapons. Unless you are saying that a sabre A is as easy to get as an epee A .

edit;

so if you compare the % of each letter rating in each event to (god knows how accurate) rating numbers I found here it looks like Sabre is strongest;

Sabre 252.29
Epee 131.35
Foil 93.24

(using the same A=6 etc but weighting for difference from 'normal' for each weapon).

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by keith

... but you have not weighted for ratings between weapons. Unless you are saying that a sabre A is as easy to get as an epee A ;).

Obviously it's easier, I've earned my sabre A 5 times, have yet to earn it once in epee, despite having fenced epee for close to twice as long... :)

-B

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by seak

To take it even further, I decided to devise a (very) simple math formula to determine strenght. In this "formula" each A = 6 points each B = 5 so on so forth and each U = 1. This allows for size and strenght to be measured as well as relative strenght i.e. an A is better then a B. Therefore in this tournament foil = 107, sabre = 116 and epee = 164, hence epee is the strongest.

Wow that was pretty dorky

And epee wins due simply to having 15 more people allowed to enter.

so, does size make a competition inherently stronger?

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by keith

... but you have not weighted for ratings between weapons. Unless you are saying that a sabre A is as easy to get as an epee A .

edit;

so if you compare the % of each letter rating in each event to (god knows how accurate) rating numbers I found here it looks like Sabre is strongest;

Sabre 252.29
Epee 131.35
Foil 93.24

(using the same A=6 etc but weighting for difference from 'normal' for each weapon).

much more reasonable.

-m

[notalent]

Greetings Keith,
Well since there are more A fencers in epee it stands to reason that they are more available, and therefor easier to get.

Ofcourse a rating only says you were so good ONCE, not how good you will be today.
TD

Originally Posted by keith

... but you have not weighted for ratings between weapons. Unless you are saying that a sabre A is as easy to get as an epee A .

[notalent]

Greetings oiuyt,
Or it could be that you realize that sabre is better thqn epee, so you try harder when you fence it

Terry

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Obviously it's easier, I've earned my sabre A 5 times, have yet to earn it once in epee, despite having fenced epee for close to twice as long...

-B

[KD5MDK]

Or "longer" doesn't translate to "as often" directly.

[chiz]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

/url]

I find the numbers interesting. To answer the question, "Which tournament of the three is the strongest?" One would, quite obviously, need to decide what determines "strength." Each of the three tournaments could be considered the strongest in its own right, depending on the criteria selected.

Is it Number of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Div I eligible Fencers? Percentage of A/B Fencers?

I just thought the numbers were interesting, and thought I'd share... comment away.-w

I think this will work. Go to Sciurus-Rex’s thread “Seeding question: What is the "index" number?” IanSerotkin has a range of index number values for seeding polls. Take the inverse of all the index numbers, add them and take an average, the closest to 1 is the strongest. You may want to give consideration for the number of A to B, A to C, A to D, and etc.

Chiz

[keith]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

Is it Number of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Classified Fencers? Percentage of Div I eligible Fencers? Percentage of A/B Fencers?

The interesting number, for advertising purposes, might be the relative strength factor against other regional open events.

The 'which weapon was harder to win' pissing match is all good fun but knowing that such an such an event is the strongest in the calender might help draw more entrants. Or for fencers suffering competition phobia knowing that a certain event while open, is relatively weak, might be useful. Of course I'm not sure a detailed statistical analysis is required to work that out

back to the micturition.

[KD5MDK]

I can't think of a tournament in this region which has had a sabre event which approached the epee event with one exception, the 2004 Rose Condon (A2 in each event, but with a lot more As in epee). So by definition any epee event around here will be stronger, but on the other hand, any epee event around here which doesn't make A4 can look a little anemic, whereas any sabre event which makes B2 is near or in the top tier of regional sabre.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Or "longer" doesn't translate to "as often" directly.

I've been in more A-rated epee tournaments than A-rated sabre tournaments.

That said, of course you are correct. As I've improved (in both epee and sabre) the proportion of tournaments that I've entered has shifted well to the sabre end of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by notalent

Or it could be that you realize that sabre is better thqn epee, so you try harder when you fence it

Might have something here... :)

Originally Posted by keith

but knowing that such an such an event is the strongest in the calender might help draw more entrants.

Ah, but in this case there are pre-set limits on the size of the fields. Epee and sabre are already full, foil had 1 remaining slot open last time I checked. I suspect that at some point in the next four months they will all become full without any additional speculation on which is the strongest. :)

Query for the PdF people: Why do sabre/foil have limits of 36 rather than 39?

-B
ps just as a side note, despite my classifications, I strongly believe that ME is the easiet weapon in which to obtain an A classification.

[KD5MDK]

Because they LOVE EPEE and HATE the rest of us.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I can't think of a tournament in this region which has had a sabre event which approached the epee event with one exception, the 2004 Rose Condon (A2 in each event, but with a lot more As in epee). So by definition any epee event around here will be stronger, but on the other hand, any epee event around here which doesn't make A4 can look a little anemic, whereas any sabre event which makes B2 is near or in the top tier of regional sabre.

I guess it depends on what you consider the region. In the southwest section, in 2004, CCO was also an A2 in sabre, with an arguably stronger field than the Rose. However since I am on the boundaries of the Southwest section, I consider Atlanta to be in my region, and the strongest sabre tournaments for me are there. They also had an A4 this summer, and in sabre, I doubt that happens much outside of NACs

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by keith

The interesting number, for advertising purposes, might be the relative strength factor against other regional open events.

The 'which weapon was harder to win' pissing match is all good fun but knowing that such an such an event is the strongest in the calender might help draw more entrants. Or for fencers suffering competition phobia knowing that a certain event while open, is relatively weak, might be useful. Of course I'm not sure a detailed statistical analysis is required to work that out

back to the micturition.

this is a good point. it's relitively difficult to determine the ease of getting an A in sabre vs. epee-- there is some evidence that leads one in a certain direction, but it's not necessarily accurate. it's much easier to determine the ease of getting an A in sabre at this event compared to getting an A in sabre at the Pomme de Terre.

the question "how do you define a strong event" is, in fact, a good question. the problem is that the data provided, in itself, doesn't provide a good statistical base for anything.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

it's much easier to determine the ease of getting an A in sabre at this event compared to getting an A in sabre at the Pomme de Terre.

Well, the Memorial Day tournament has been A-level every year it has been run (so far just last year, but with an expectation that this will continue).

Let's look at the Pomme. Open MS hasn't been an A event since 2003. Looking through results I think that might be the only time it has ever been an A event. Granted that includes such rediculousness as 2004 where the 2 A's present made it to the gold medal bout, but 10 of 11 B's failed to make the round of 8. So I'd say, historically, it's been significantly harder to earn a sabre A at the Pomme. :)

edit: on the other hand, Open Women's Sabre WAS an A event at the Pomme last year.

-B

[alewive]

Question here...being a round robin event, does it follow the same age restrictions discussed in other threads pertaining to opens? Looking at the preregs, I see at least one youngster (Y-12/U) that I know of in there.

While we know age doesn't always relate to ability, in terms of tournament strength, there's obviously a range of both ages and abilities here (a 12-yr-old U fencing an A over twice his age). Which may very well be the point of the r/r format?...give everyone a shot? No question this will be a strong event; I'm just curious, as I don't have much experience with this format.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by alewive

Question here...being a round robin event, does it follow the same age restrictions discussed in other threads pertaining to opens? Looking at the preregs, I see at least one youngster (Y-12/U) that I know of in there.

While we know age doesn't always relate to ability, in terms of tournament strength, there's obviously a range of both ages and abilities here (a 12-yr-old U fencing an A over twice his age). Which may very well be the point of the r/r format?...give everyone a shot? No question this will be a strong event; I'm just curious, as I don't have much experience with this format.

one justification is that it's an amazing amount of fun.

another is that it's a GREAT event for kids near the end of high school to go to, because it closely mimics a lot of collegiate fencing, where you're fencing 5 touch bouts ALL DAY, and if you don't treat every bout as if it matters, you do horribly.

did i mention it's fun?


and by fun, i mean it in a very masochistic way, because i couldn't walk after my second bout of the day last year.


(PS, someone make me withdraw this year if that happens again??)