Official RMC Web Site

[Craig]

http://www.geocities.com/rockymountaincircuit/

[hpfencing]

Sorry all the site needs a little updating but we've been remodeling our club, I'll try to get it updated this coming week witht he point standings attached.

[jaleod]

If you have a good idea for the section circuit, then here is the forum to express your ideas.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by jaleod

If you have a good idea for the section circuit, then here is the forum to express your ideas.

Sure,

I have a great idea for your section, and any other that involves 20+ hr drive times. Redistrict, or forget about it.

It is beyond reason for people to fly to regional events, and until you can reduce the drive time nec for participation you can kiss any chance of a coherent and competitive circuit style competition goodbye.

If I want to fly to a competition, I'll go to an NAC, but don't expect folks to shell out $400, in travel costs, to be a part of some 40 fencer A2 event.

Be realistic and gerrymander yourself so that drive times for a specific group of competitions is about 6 hrs MAX and most are around 3 hrs, even if it means smaller competitions. Trust me, they'll grow.

Look around - not one of the USFA's supersize sections has a viable circuit event that follows the borders of its jurisdiction. It's not a coincidence.

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Sure,

I have a great idea for your section, and any other that involves 20+ hr drive times. Redistrict, or forget about it.

I don't think we have that option and some of us really are not ready to throw in the towel so easily. The Rocky Mountain Section had one a long time ago and we want to revive it.

With distances being a problem we have limited that only the points from each fencers top 3 events count. This encourages traveling but keeps our fencers from having to shell out $1000 to win the circuit.

I guess we could scrap the idea but I'd like to find a way to make it work.

[Mr Epee]

And where are these events again?

Phoenix Cup (AZ division)
Crown of Texas (Plains TX division)
New Mexico Open (NM Division)
Nick Toth Open (CO Division)
Falcon Open (Co Division)
Icicle Invitational (NE/South D. Division)
Sectional Championship (Section event)

So you have an event in Lincoln, NE, so we can assume that you intend for Lincolnians (is this the right term) to participate in a circuit that would involve...

From Expedia.com
Lincoln to Colorado Springs 552 mi 8 hrs 18 mins
Lincoln to Amarillo 691 mi 10 hrs 58 mins
Lincoln to Santa Fe 875 mi 12 hrs 53 mins
Lincoln to Phoenix* 1394 mi 20 hrs 12 mins

* Home of a Circuit event and Sectional Championships.

You think this is reasonable and sustainable?

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

You think this is reasonable and sustainable?

It's the best we have to work with. Sectionals moves every year, this is the first time it's been in AZ since I have been invovled at the section level.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by hpfencing

It's the best we have to work with.

Yikes, defeatist attitudes already?

Jaleod asked for suggestions, and I submited my very experienced and well researched opinion. Feel free to disagree, but to say you have no other options is a little silly.

Like I have mentioned in numerous other threads, circuits only succeed when the circumstances of participation are reasonable for the target market. Yes, there are a few fencers who may be willing to fly to regional events, or even submit themselves to a few 8+ hr one-way drives every year for the love of fencing, however this simply does not appeal to the vast majority of sport participants, not restricted to fencing - particularly those who are young and entirely reliant on parental/team travel arrangements. When travel presents such an extreme barrier to participation you cannot maintain a sustainable event. Over time, even the most stalwart road warriors will sucumb to the pressures of family, job, routine, etc... The circuits that are successful are able to appeal to the average participant - not only the dedicated elite fencers for whom there are already alternative competitions with greater incentive for participation.

Even if the USFA is unwilling to officially redistrict your circuit, there is no reason that the organizers of a sectional circuit couldn't make arrangements within the competition structure that would be more suitible for the special conditions of their section.

Here's one possible solution.

Recognizing that within a Super-size Section (i.e SES and RMS) travel time and related expense pose an unreasonable barrier to consistant Section wide participation under the general section circuit format. This issue could be overcome with the establishment of 2, or more, Sectional Circuits that would be under the oversite of the Section, but localized enough to ensure the participation of the average fencer.

I am honestly not familiar enough with all the clubs in the region, but this could be a general guide.

Using the RMS example...

Rocky Mountain East
Nebraska/S.Dakota
Kansas

Rocky Mountian Central
Wyoming
Colorado

Rocky Mountain West
Plains Texas
New Mexico
Arizona

Fairly simple approach that would ensure that people could have at least 3 standardized, and stable, competitions within reasonable travel each season.

Then throw in Sectional Championships at the end of the season, and you're in business.

[Parry Prime]

Using the RMS example...

Rocky Mountain East
Nebraska/S.Dakota
Kansas

Rocky Mountian Central
Wyoming
Colorado

Rocky Mountain West
Plains Texas
New Mexico
Arizona

Fairly simple approach that would ensure that people could have at least 3 standardized, and stable, competitions within reasonable travel each season.

Then throw in Sectional Championships at the end of the season, and you're in business.

I think that the committee has thought of something similar, but the problem I can see is that in "Rocky Mountian Central" (as you call it), the only clubs that participate are the ones in Colorado. In "Rocky Mountian East" the only clubs I've heard of/from are the clubs in Kansas. With the exception of one of those three groups, it wouldn't be any change from what's going on now.

We're not the only section with distance problems. Take El Paso to Baton Rouge: Total Est. Time: 14 hours, 55 minutes; Total Est. Distance: 1016.44 miles. (Per www.mapquest.com) Wow

[Mr Epee]

Ok,

Maybe you aren't very familiar with fencing in Colorado, but I have many friends there, and am also on their divisional e-mail list (which is very good btw) and I'm sure that they would have NO problem filling up tournament slots. There are approximately 15 fencing clubs in Colorado, and quite a few of those are capable of regularly producing quality competitive fencers.

I have also checked the KS Division website (the USFA site being down makes this much harder than it should be), and there are 11 clubs listed there - at least three of which produce fencers who are already competing nationally. I can't find a division website for Nebraska, but I know for sure that Lincoln has a club that produces competitive fencers, and probably one in Omaha, as well... South Dakota? I really don't know, but there has to be someone out there.

You are in Texas, so I imagine that you have a fairly good idea how things are run in that neck of the woods.

Each of these areas ALREADY has over 500 current USFA members.

It is not clear how having a competition in AZ, TX, KS, CO, WY, NE, SD and NE plus a championship event would be encouraging further participation from the average fencer.

Maybe the issue should be framed as follows.

"What does a Sectional Circuit mean to you?"

To me, it means 3-4 events within reasonable driving distance. This ensures participation of the average competitor, and a chance to grow within a specific area. This also helps to avoid competition from National Events. Fencers shouldn't be forced to decide between flying from Phoenix to Kansas City, or flying to an NAC. If the cost is similar, then the deciding factor becomes novelty, and incentive.

To me, it means a reasonably consistant schedule, and location, meaning clubs can count on an event in x for October, in y for November, and in z for December. Experienced fencers become familiar with the routine, and coaches/club managers are able to properly set expectations for new students.

It's possible that your vision is very different from mine.

[Parry Prime]

Ok. I see what you're getting at. I was misinterprating (sp?) what you were saying.

So, then have each division (essentially) have their own competetions, all within specified parameters. Then sectionals is the championship. Am I getting this right?

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by Parry Prime

So, then have each division (essentially) have their own competetions, all within specified parameters. Then sectionals is the championship. Am I getting this right?

Maybe pair the divisions. 2 division together host 4 events and take the top 3 scores from those events and then have sectionals as the finisher.

I was not trying to have a defeatist attitude yesterdayy with my other post but we have to work with what we have, we don't want to leave anyone out and we watn to include everyone. this subdivision of it all seems like it might just work.

Thoughts everyone?

[Mr Epee]

Excactly,

And I guess this is my real point.

As a club manager/coach, your job is basically selling fencing.

The more palatable the product, the easier it is to sell.

It is fairly easy to sell three 2-4 hr competitions.

It is very difficult to sell even one 6-20hr trip for a competition below the level of a Regional Championship.

Our culture is familiar with the concept of traveling to a championship, not traveling to a “tour event.”

[hpfencing]

Since everyone has to host divsional qualifiers that could easily be used as one of the scoring options then each division could come up with one or two other events that they wish to be scored.

This fixes the traveling issue but creates a logistics nightmare to tabulate the points.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by hpfencing

Since everyone has to host divsional qualifiers that could easily be used as one of the scoring options then each division could come up with one or two other events that they wish to be scored.

This fixes the traveling issue but creates a logistics nightmare to tabulate the points.

Nope, this doesn't work well, because these days Divisions are not required to host an Open Division Championship event. And, it has been my observation that a large portion do not. Division Qualifiers events are for the most part limited to aged events and Div 2/3 events. Then there is also the problem that Division Championship events are necessarily limited to members of that specific division.

There should be some combination of Divisions to help broaden things.

Think of it as "Regionalization within reason" to coin a phrase.

Omaha, Nebraska to Phoenix -> 20+ hrs = unreasonable
Omaha, Nebraska to Amarillo -> 10+ hrs = unreasonable
Omaha, Nebraska to Denver -> 8+ hrs = Highly questionable

Omaha, Nebraska to Kansas City -> 2 hrs = reasonable
Omaha, Nebraska to Lincoln -> 2hrs = reasonable
Omaha, Nebraska to Wichita -> 4hrs = fairly do-able

Having looked at the map a little more closely... the one area that this doesn't work perfectly for is Plains Texas, which ironically enough I believe is your division. The drive from Amarillo to Phoenix being in the 10 hr range. Clearly, that is unreasonable expectation.

Where are the competitions that your club participates with regularity?

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by hpfencing

This fixes the traveling issue but creates a logistics nightmare to tabulate the points.

No, not really...

Keeping point lists is EASY, and can be done independantly, or on ASKFRED.net. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the full range of possibilities available. Even without FRED this is a simple task for anyone with basic Excel skills.

If you were to split the "Section" into 3 seperate competitive conferences, and each conference had it's own 4 event circut... you are looking at 13 competitions max (including sectional championships). Just to be clear the conference point lists would all be kept seperately, and not rolled into one massive list that wouldn't mean much. Then you would could add the result from Sectional Championship into the mix with a strength factor of 1.5, 2.0, or whatever was deemed appropriate. This even provides a bonus incentive to participate in the Championship event.

[hpfencing]

One of our division's clubs goes to Co twice a year and my club goes to Co sometimes.


HPF travels to NM a LOT they are only 5 hours away. We actually travel to the big AZ tournament each year but that is only one of the 4 clubs in the division at this time.

[Mr Epee]

Interesting, but I'm a little confused.

When you say you travel to Arizona, did you mean that you visit only 1 of their 4 clubs, or that only 1 club from your division attends that event?

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

No, not really...

If you were to split the "Section" into 3 seperate competitive conferences, and each conference had it's own 4 event circut... you are looking at 13 competitions max (including sectional championships). Just to be clear the conference point lists would all be kept seperately, and not rolled into one massive list that wouldn't mean much. Then you would could add the result from Sectional Championship into the mix with a strength factor of 1.5, 2.0, or whatever was deemed appropriate. This even provides a bonus incentive to participate in the Championship event.

Some people would be winning D1 events and be the "top' of the conference and other would have to win A3 events to be there. It would be a lot more complicated than simply creating a spreadsheet. Events woudl almost hve to be wieghted and then the people in the high level areas of the conference would always win.

Yes it is quite complicated...... If you really look at the big picture.

[Mr Epee]

I'm not sure I understand why.

All World Cup events issue the same points* regardless of whether they are massive tournaments in France, or an event with 34 entries in Australia.

NAC's are not weighted despite the fact that they can very wildly in quality depending on who shows up. If you win an NAC and beat Tiomkin, Kellner, and Dupree, you get 1,000 points. If you win an NAC while those guys are away at a competition in France, you get 1,000 points.

The truth is that it doesn't truly matter whether someone wins a "D" comp, or an "A" comp as long as that is representitive of the level of their region. These things tend to improve and standardize over time. It's difficult to research, because the records are not available in any archive, but Sectional Circuits DO improve over time and the events tend to become more evenly skilled the longer they have been established.

If you tell people that they will only get 10 points for winning that "D" tournament and 50 points for winning that "A" tournament, then guess what... the best fencers will never attend that "D" tournament and the event will stay a "D" tournament until it eventually falls off the map.





* Yes, I'm aware that the total is different for Grand Prix events.