end of the attack (foil)

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by rsy

Craig,

I am not sure I understand. Is what your referring to different that merely being in preparation? In other words is it: fencer A advances and begins his lunge without extending, fencer B responds with a lunge with extention, fencer A then extends, both arrive on target, touch for fencer B's attack in prep; or is it something different?

-r

The above hypothetical is gonna start a whole 'nother debate.



The action Craig is describing is pretty clear:

Originally Posted by Craig

When performed correctly (as in correct timing), the opponent keys off of the end of the lunge to make their parry. Since the arm and point are held back, the parry whiffs by and leaves the target area nice and open for the final extension.

In other words:

A starts a lunge, arm back, finishes lunge, B parries, finds nothing, and A extends and hits.

When done by the Rochester girls, as mentioned by DF11, said lunge is usually preceded by a number of advances...

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by rsy

Craig,

I am not sure I understand. Is what your referring to different that merely being in preparation? In other words is it: fencer A advances and begins his lunge without extending, fencer B responds with a lunge with extention, fencer A then extends, both arrive on target, touch for fencer B's attack in prep; or is it something different?

-r

I think it might be better looked as a form of compound attack, into which a stop hit can be in time if it occurs prior to the beginning of the final action of the compound attack. In both cases, the idea is to draw a failed parry by your opponent, and then hit them after that.

[jBirch]

Call me confused, but I thought the original phrase looked like this:

Lunge distance.

Fencer A: Slow hand extension.
Fencer A: Start the lunge.
Fencer B: Starts extension
Fencer A: Front foot lands
Fencer A: Finishes hand extension
Fencer A/B: Hit.

Two lights.

James.

[bigdawg2121]

Even so, it still falls under the general lost tempo umbrella. The only way that the extending hand maintains right of way after that initial footfall is if the opponent continues to search, runs away, makes some other form of error (i.e. fails to realize he can riposte), or your ref is out of touch with current conventions of right of way.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Call me confused, but I thought the original phrase looked like this:

Lunge distance.

Fencer A: Slow hand extension.
Fencer A: Start the lunge.
Fencer B: Starts extension
Fencer A: Front foot lands
Fencer A: Finishes hand extension
Fencer A/B: Hit.

Two lights.

James.

That was my impression as well. Which is why when DF11 posted this, I felt it was important to point out the differences between the actions that the Thompsons use and the action as described in his first post.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by achilleus

That was my impression as well. Which is why when DF11 posted this, I felt it was important to point out the differences between the actions that the Thompsons use and the action as described in his first post.

Ok, so I may very well be out of touch with how this is currently called in the US.

My understanding is that there is considerably more "slack" in the timing calls vis-a-vis the end of the attack in foil as there is in sabre. In foil, the lunge has to be obviously over before the continuously extending arm is called a continuation. The "front foot" stipulation is only relevent to determining when the lunge is truly over and usually doesn't factor into the phrase analysis. Up here, flicks to the shoulder/flank often arrive well after the front foot has stopped and are usually called as a part of the original lunge. In fact, convention here states that if the arm starts extending before the lunge then the lunge isn't over until the arm stops extending. Obviously, initiating new footwork after the lunge changes the analysis with regard to the end of the lunge and the extending arm.

Has the convention in this regard recently changed?

James.

[bigdawg2121]

There is usually a bit more leeway in the calling of attacks in foil than saber, but mostly b/c there's genearally more room in terms of what gets called as a preparation. As far as touches that land with the arm that's still extending after the lunge ends the part after the foot lands is a remise, it retains right of way only if the opportunity to riposte is not seized by the opponent. I could see it in the case of some flicks but only if the point was landing late b/c of the length of time it took the blade to arc and land, not if the flick was executed late.

[muaddib]

I don't see anything in the foil rules that says the front foot ends an attack. Can someone quote a rule number?

This makes no sense in foil. If I make an advance lunge, the front foot touches twice, which time stops the attack? If I make an advance ballastra lunge, which of the 3 times stop it? If I make an advance advance ballastra lunge fleiche, which front foot touching the floor stop my attack? In foil, ROW is determined by the arm extending and threatening target. If the action is continuous, front foot doesn't matter.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by muaddib

I don't see anything in the foil rules that says the front foot ends an attack. Can someone quote a rule number?

No they cant, and that's because there's no such rule in foil. That whole "foot touching floor" thing is only a sabre rule.

Originally Posted by muaddib

In foil, ROW is determined by the arm extending and threatening target. If the action is continuous, front foot doesn't matter.

You are correct, there's nothing in the foil rules specifying when an attack ends. And since there's nothing to say when it ends, one can infer that an attack exists as long at it meets the requirements... extending arm, threatening valid target, etc.


.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by muaddib

I don't see anything in the foil rules that says the front foot ends an attack. Can someone quote a rule number?

This makes no sense in foil. If I make an advance lunge, the front foot touches twice, which time stops the attack? If I make an advance ballastra lunge, which of the 3 times stop it? If I make an advance advance ballastra lunge fleiche, which front foot touching the floor stop my attack? In foil, ROW is determined by the arm extending and threatening target. If the action is continuous, front foot doesn't matter.

Given an attack is generally considered to consist of two pieces of footwork, the advance advance portion coming before your ballestra lunge is preparation.

Given there is no description of when the attack in foil ends in the rulebook, you could say that attacks are never over. However, this kind of silliness tends not to be respected, so it's up to the referee to determine when they think an attack is over.

[Boo Boo]

1. Fencing time

t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple fencing action.

2. Offensive and defensive actions
t.7 The offensive actions are the attack, the riposte and the counter-riposte.

— The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target, preceding the launching of the lunge or flèche (cf. t.56ss, t.75ss).

Although it is not explicitly written down for foil (as it is for sabre), the lunge is considered to be the end of the fencing action (as you can see an attack is an offensive action "preceding the launching of the lunge or flèche"). And this is the way that good referees will consistently call it.

Yes, the extension is all important in foil, but not to the exclusion of "fencing time".

Obviously, as others have pointed out, how this is applied depends on the timing in relation to what your opponent is doing.

You can argue and disagree all you like, but it wont make you correct (in respect to how the rules are applied consistently by good referees at national/international competitions).

Boo

[muaddib]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Given an attack is generally considered to consist of two pieces of footwork, the advance advance portion coming before your ballestra lunge is preparation.

Have to disagee. If a fencer extends their arm on the first advance, this is a valid attack and has ROW! Now if you wait until your lunge to extend, then of course, advance advance (with no arm) is preparation.

[muaddib]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Yes, the extension is all important in foil, but not to the exclusion of "fencing time".

Obviously, as others have pointed out, how this is applied depends on the timing in relation to what your opponent is doing.

I don't know if this comment is aimed at me, but I agree with what you say here. I was commenting on the "front foot" = end of attack. The ref shouldn't say "although your arm continues forward all the way, your front foot ends the attack." This is a silly way to describe the action. From what I read into the action, it sounds like the fencer in question attacks with a bent arm and doesn't extend until after they've lunged and the opponent has attacked. Sounds like the ref made the right call, just explained it bad.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by muaddib

I don't know if this comment is aimed at me, but I agree with what you say here.

No, it is aimed at the OP and a few other posters...

The front foot does not end the action, per se, but it does on a lunge.

In foil, you can have an advance-lunge/step-lunge, for instance, and still be "in time" (assuming your arm is progressively extending). The step in the step-lunge is not a preparation.

Boo

[keropie]

Originally Posted by muaddib

Have to disagee. If a fencer extends their arm on the first advance, this is a valid attack and has ROW! Now if you wait until your lunge to extend, then of course, advance advance (with no arm) is preparation.

So, if the fencer has ~extended~ by the end of the second advance, the official would be with his/her rights to call it as 'attack (first two advances), redoublement (jump of the ballestra) redoublement (the final lunge).' You'd best hope no counter attack lands into that.

As for the relevant rules in this situation (and the OP situation):

Originally Posted by USFA RULEBOOK

1. Fencing time
t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple fencing
action.

t.55 The Referee alone decides as to the validity or the priority of the
touch by applying the following basic rules which are the
conventions applicable to foil fencing.

t.56 (a) Every attack, that is every initial offensive action, which is
correctly executed must be parried or completely avoided
and the phrase must be followed through — that is to say,
coordinated (cf. t.7).
In order to judge the correctness of an attack the following
points must be considered:
1. The simple attack, direct or indirect (cf. t.8), is correctly
executed when the extending of the arm, the point
threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of
the lunge or the flèche.

So the simple attack must occupy one tempo. The official alone decides what that one tempo is (i.e., which action you've made is that 'simple attack'). The official in this case (and for the vast majority of us) finds that the simple attack has ended with the lunge (as the footwork that is intended to hit the opponent). This action does not turn a light on. The attack has failed. Don't miss next time. So the official is saying that the front foot of the lunge (back foot of fleche or cross lunge) at least in this case ends the attack (in his deified opinion). While if the call was made as originally posted immediately, I'd say he might have over volunteered information, if this is his clarification, I think the referee was very reasonable. He told the fencer why, in his opinion, that attack failed, and what the 'attacker' needs to do next time to get the call.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

No, it is aimed at the OP and a few other posters...

And since I seem to be one of the only ones holding the opinion that the front foot does not terminate the action then that comment would be directed at me...

The front foot does not end the action, per se, but it does on a lunge.

Can you more fully explain this?

In foil, you can have an advance-lunge/step-lunge, for instance, and still be "in time" (assuming your arm is progressively extending). The step in the step-lunge is not a preparation.

Boo

Right. This is the crux of the difference between advance-lunge and Advance. Lunge. The progressively extending is also contentious. Feint/flick action comes to mind with it being interpretted currently as a compound attack and not attack-continuation.

James.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by keropie

So the simple attack must occupy one tempo. The official alone decides what that one tempo is (i.e., which action you've made is that 'simple attack'). The official in this case (and for the vast majority of us) finds that the simple attack has ended with the lunge (as the footwork that is intended to hit the opponent). This action does not turn a light on. The attack has failed. Don't miss next time.

So the official is saying that the front foot of the lunge (back foot of fleche or cross lunge) at least in this case ends the attack (in his deified opinion). While if the call was made as originally posted immediately, I'd say he might have over volunteered information, if this is his clarification, I think the referee was very reasonable. He told the fencer why, in his opinion, that attack failed, and what the 'attacker' needs to do next time to get the call.

I think we agree, but I'm not sure. In foil, the attack isn't over because the front foot landed. The attack is over because the lunge was over. Subtle difference.

The lunge is generally considered to be over when the arm is maximally extended AND both feet are planted AND the tip is no longer moving forward. The order that the end state is achieved isn't important in foil (but is in sabre).

James.

[bigdawg2121]

So I guess expecting a modicum of reason around here is a little much to ask. It generally goes without saying that when in reference to a discussion of the front foot ending an attack the foot considered is the foot ending the lunge, flech, etc. not the front foot landing during the advance or jump forward of a ballestra. As far as the lunge ending the attack, yes it does, but at least with current conventions that might as well be synonymous with the attack ending with the front foot of the lunge. If you can't accept that the front foot ends the attack then think of it this way:

If the lunge can be described as having the arm at full extension and the feet planted THEN we must also note that these criteria must occur before or concurrently with the landing of the foot or the lunge has been executed improperly and it is therefore not a valid attack.

If you lunge, your foot lands, I start a valid counteraction as you're foot lands, and then you're (for argument's sake slowly and continuously extending) arm/point finally decide to extend enough to hit me it is still my touch. You as the attacker need to hit in proper time with the landing of the front foot in the lunge, or you need to cause me as the defender to make some error which allows your remising/redoubling action right of way.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

If you can't accept that the front foot ends the attack then think of it this way:

If the lunge can be described as having the arm at full extension and the feet planted THEN we must also note that these criteria must occur before or concurrently with the landing of the foot or the lunge has been executed improperly and it is therefore not a valid attack.

If you lunge, your foot lands, I start a valid counteraction as you're foot lands, and then you're (for argument's sake slowly and continuously extending) arm/point finally decide to extend enough to hit me it is still my touch.

That's the question.

Obviously, if I stop my extension after my front foot lands, my lunge is over. Obviously too if I make a ridiculously slow extension I can't be "continually threatening" and my attack hasn't even started.

The case you seem to be talking about is the one where I lunge and you are out of distance for my attack, then close and skewer yourself on my advancing arm while getting your touch. In this case, you've *started* your action by necessity during my offensive action and so you've executed a counter-attack into my attack.

The only case that makes sense is the one where you *start* your action *after* my foot lands and from a distance where I can't have hit you. In this case, I'm obviously not in distance to hit with a straight arm and you need to close the distance to get your touch. My attack is over and it's your point all the way.

Let's make your case a little more contentious...

I lunge and my arm is fully extendED before my foot hits the ground. My foot lands and I "soften" the knee to get an extra inch of distance. You extend during my lunge. We both hit. Are you saying then that my lunge was over and in fact I hit with a remise?

James.