get a grip!

[Pacific]

Hi to all,
I was wondering, can anyone provide me with an explanation as to why the anatomical grip works better than the French or Italian grip? And who came up with the anatomical grip anyway?

[Cthulhu]

Being somewhat of a newbie, I am not sure I am 100% correct on this, but here's what I heard.

Pistol (or anatomical) grips were introduced after one of the World Wars, where many soldiers lost fingers/hands. The anatomical grips provide a more secure grip, especially if you are missing fingers.

From personal experience, I prefer pistol grips. I started with a french grip (since all the weapons provided in the class were french grips). After a few months, a vendor was at one of the local tournaments. So, for $39 I got myself a nice practice foil. The vendor did not have any pre-assembled weapons, so I went through the box of grips and chose the one that felt the most comfortable, which turned out to be a Belgian grip. In my last (dry) tournament using a french grip, I got the weapon knocked out of my hand 3 times. Ever since I switched to pistol, it has not happened again.

Last Friday, during our class tournament, my foil blade snapped in 2 places, so I was forced to grab one of the french grip foils from the club rack. Almost lost my weapon a few times. For the finals, someone was kind enough to loan me their foil.

But not only do you have a better grip of the weapon with pistol grips, I find that your point control gets a lot better as well.

[neevel]

Although control of blade actions is most strongly influenced by being at the right distance and getting a good point of contact with the opponent's blade, the extra hand leverage afforded by a pistol grip does offer a real advantage. If you use one right, your normal hold on a pistol grip should be looser than with a french grip, but with the ability to easily modulate the strength of your grip by applying varying degrees of pressure with the fingers.

You can also more readily use other fingers than just the thumb and forefinger to manipulate a pistol grip. This is especially useful when making actions involving a considerable degree of angulation, where the pad of the thumb isn't able to contact the grip as well.

Particularly if you've got a decent downward cant in the tang, your wrist position is more neutral when holding a pistol grip. With French and Italian grips, the wrist is typically flexed downward to near it's limit, meaning that you don't have much range to further angle the blade in that direction. The lack of a pommel also makes it easier to make lateral angulations with the wrist.

-Dave

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Pacific:
<strong>Hi to all,
I was wondering, can anyone provide me with an explanation as to why the anatomical grip works better than the French or Italian grip? And who came up with the anatomical grip anyway?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, the easiest way to answer this is to go try some orthopedic grips versus a french (you'll never find an italian grip where you usually find vendors selling grips: at a major NAC).

The various grips were invented, developed, created, whatever, by various fencing masters. Gardere is named after Gardere. Visconti is named after Visconti. Belgian is named after Belgian

and so on... Other grips are modifications of the above-named ones. The German grip is a variation to the visconti. The American grip (as sold through AFS) is nothing more than taking a standard belgian and cutting off one of the protuberances.

[Inquartata]

Just switch to sabre and all such questions become moot: no orthopedic grips ( no wires, no screws, no springs... )!

It makes life much, much simpler!

[MikeHarm]

I think your skill and technique are what determines your success, not what sort of grip you have. I'm never going back to pistol grips.

[Pacific]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeHarm:
<strong>I think your skill and technique are what determines your success, not what sort of grip you have. I'm never going back to pistol grips.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why? What happened with your pistol grip? Or are you fencing sabre...

[RF]

"I think your skill and technique are what determines your success, not what sort of grip you have. I'm never going back to pistol grips. "

I think you're wrong, and obviously aren't a very good fencer. Epee is the only weapon that a person can legitimately use a french grip in. No one, and I repeat NO ONE uses a french grip in foil and has any success with it at a high level of competition (with the exception of Cassidy Luitjen, but that has more to with her fencing strangely than anything else). You gain absolutely no advantage by fencing with a french grip, you are weaker, your point control is not as good, it is harder to flick, etc... The only benefit to using a french grip is the extra reach you can gain by gripping it near the pommel and that really doesn't serve a point in foil with right of way.

Come out of the dark ages and away from "classical" fencing. Use a pistol grip, there is no reason not to.

[lochinvar]

RF, I wonder: Would it change your answer if you knew that epee IS Mike's weapon of choice?

Then again, the dogmatic tone of your post tells me that it probably wouldn't make any difference to you at all. You obviously have all the answers already; gathering facts would just muddy the issue and be a waste of time.

Frankly, I only find it mildly interesting to hear what the top competetive fencers use or don't use, since I'm not planning on joining the Div. I circuit anytime soon. I'm only really interested in what I think will work for ME, and Cliff Beyer I definitely am NOT.

I prefer a pistol grip, but that's because I have repetetive motion syndrome in my right hand, which makes it cramp up after about 45 seconds. But I currently am using french because a) it's the only weapon I have and b) it's the only weapon I have. Quite honestly, I don't think it makes much difference in my game right at the moment; I'm not that competitive at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.

This January's NAC in South Bend will see me trying all types of ortho grips. (I have big hands, and finding one that's comfortable in my hand is a problem.)

[RF]

[quote]Originally posted by lochinvar:
<strong>RF, I wonder: Would it change your answer if you knew that epee IS Mike's weapon of choice?[qb]

No, actually it wouldn't. He still probably isn't any good. And there is still no reason to fence with a french grip.

[qb]Then again, the dogmatic tone of your post tells me that it probably wouldn't make any difference to you at all. You obviously have all the answers already; gathering facts would just muddy the issue and be a waste of time.[qb]

I do have all the answers, and there really would be no point to presenting you with "facts" since YOU seem to already know that I must be wrong.

[qb]Frankly, I only find it mildly interesting to hear what the top competetive fencers use or don't use, since I'm not planning on joining the Div. I circuit anytime soon. I'm only really interested in what I think will work for ME, and Cliff Beyer I definitely am NOT. [qb]

Here's a hint: Pistol grips will work for you, french grips (while they can be good to learn on) need to be discarded as soon as any level of skill is obtained.

[qb]I prefer a pistol grip, but that's because I have repetetive motion syndrome in my right hand, which makes it cramp up after about 45 seconds. But I currently am using french because a) it's the only weapon I have and b) it's the only weapon I have. Quite honestly, I don't think it makes much difference in my game right at the moment; I'm not that competitive at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.[qb]

2 things 1) buy/make another pistol grip 2)buy/make another pistol grip
It may not make a difference in your game right now, but it should. Even if you fence with a "traditional" french style, you have more control with the pistol grip.

[qb]This January's NAC in South Bend will see me trying all types of ortho grips. (I have big hands, and finding one that's comfortable in my hand is a problem.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmmmm buy a bigger one... like the russian grip

Progress is good... long live invention.

Stop being stagnant or else you turn into Christopher Umbs.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: RF ]</p>

[lochinvar]

“...he was cursed with all the certainty of youth, unleavened by any trace of humor or self-doubt, and wed to the arrogance that came so naturally to those born blond and strong...”
~ George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

[RF]

"It's good to be the King..."

-Mel Brooks, The History of the World, Part 1

[LeftyMutantChild]

Though I like pistol grips, I think it's important to be able to use French. Stuff breaks, fencing equipment breaks alot, and sometimes, there isn't really much of a choice in the matter.

[latenight]

I have found, that for myself, anything except a visconti for foil -bites.

[damianip]

OK, so if pistol grips don't matter in sabre, and épéeists accept the use of the French grip as effective in the right hands then, actually, foil is the only weapon where the pistol is a significant factor.

As far as point control being superior with a pistol, that's quite debatable. Go fence some good épéeists who use the French and you'll find their point control is superior to those using a pistol (again, we're talking about the good ones). This is necessary due to the requirement to fence with less blade contact, less overpowering prises du fer etc. etc.

The chief superiority of the pistol lies in the strength realized by the "cradling" of the entire hand. This strength is largely realized in beats and parries.

As far as flicks go, a pommel gripped foil flicks beautifully.

It's not just the grip. In foil, a fencer may eventually find that the pistol serves better, but it won't make a good fencer out of a bad one. Nor will a French make a bad foilist out of a good one.


Paolo

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: damianip ]</p>

[swordsen]

Well, that was a pretty obnoxious post RF. anyone who doesn't do it the way you do is an idiot huh?
Get a life.

[OleMissFencer]

When i first started to fence my coach FORCED me to use a french grip and I absolutely hated it. French grips give me terrible cramps in my hand and after about a month I refused to fence with a french ever again. I first started to use a Belgium, but then went onto Visconti, but now if i fence foil I much prefer a german grip. I just find pistols to be better in my case, because 1) their more comfortable 2) better hand control 3) I can't hold onto a french grip without it getting knocked out of my hand.
But everyone is different, I'm not saying pistol is the greatest, it just works for me.

[Pierfrancesco]

using a french grip, my hand seems to get sore pretty quickly and i occasionally come close to losing grip of the weapon. on the few occasions that i've used a pistol, i haven't had these problems. i think i'll go with the pistol when i finally shell out and get my own electric foil..

[Pacific]

Given the wide range of answers, I surmise that the pistol grip is the norm for most, if not all foil fencers. More importantly, the grip is only part of what makes a successful fencer. Thank you all for your input, this has been most informative.