switching from foil to epee

[saeras]

my fencing coach is switching me to epee and i get my first lesson in it tomorrow , does fencing foil benefit you in epee in any way?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

A strong base in the foil "fundamentals" will let you succeed in epee much quicker. Thats one idea.

The other theory is that epee should be coached as a seperate weapon, with seperate theories and pegagogy. This is another idea.


If your coach is teaching epee as just foil with no off target and no right of way, then foil will help. If he's teaching epee as a totally different beast, then foil will be less helpful. This is my idea.

[Beowulfman6]

As a foilist just learning epee, I feel for you. The better I get at foil the worse my epee fencing. I think it is mostly a commitment thing for me, but I still keep doing pary-ripostes in epee and ending up with a double touch from my oponents remise. In fact, you may notice, as I did when I started epee after a strong foil base, that you get a lot of doubles. A lot of stuff that I use effectively at foil just dosn't seem to work for epee.

I've tryed fencing epee more passive/defensive, but that doesn't work so I start fencing it agressively like I do foil and then I just get tagged a lot.

By the way, epees hurt more than foils so make sure and wear a plastron and cup for practice if you don't already!

[slain4sooth]

as primarily a foilist i have fun trying epee occaisionally; the funny thing is that i before i was *told* to avoid doing beat-parries and to rely more on point control rather than explosive speed, i was actually doing beat-parries and ridiculous advance (hard)-beat ballestras pretty sucessfully against people who actually *knew* how to fence epee, which leads me to believe that the principles of foil are actually sound. but i also enjoyed trying to do it right, which seems to involve a lot wetter and less decisive actions than foil....

[sandworm]

eh, i think doing foil first helped me out with some of the basic parries.

[saeras]

Originally Posted by Beowulfman6

As a foilist just learning epee, I feel for you. The better I get at foil the worse my epee fencing. I think it is mostly a commitment thing for me, but I still keep doing pary-ripostes in epee and ending up with a double touch from my oponents remise. In fact, you may notice, as I did when I started epee after a strong foil base, that you get a lot of doubles. A lot of stuff that I use effectively at foil just dosn't seem to work for epee.

I've tryed fencing epee more passive/defensive, but that doesn't work so I start fencing it agressively like I do foil and then I just get tagged a lot.

By the way, epees hurt more than foils so make sure and wear a plastron and cup for practice if you don't already!

Ive only been fencing foil for 4 monthes , im really going to miss it and i wont be as good as my teamates any more (other beginners) but i did want to learn all three weapons

[Gav]

Why the hell is coach switching you? Surely you are the one to decide that?

In any case.

As DFP says work on the basics. Footwork is footwork do lots of that.

As you are fairly new to fencing anyway (~4 months) you're not really so indoctrinated in Foil that Epee will be a problem. If Epee is where you want to go then just enjoy yourself.

Note: It's fine to play with all 3 weapons. But if you want success then you should focus. I know of one or two Foil/Epee people who are succesful in both - they are rare. The one trait that they share is very good footwork and a good sense of timing.

I'll reiterate one point - who is your coach to tell you what weapon to do? It's your life, your sport and you are the one who has to be enjoying it for it to be worthwhile.

[Amadeus]

there's debate as to whether equivalent teaching in foil or epee of the basics will lead to better results in a competitive epeeist, but an epeeist with the same epee experience as his opponent, but with more foil experience, will have an advantage.

[eac]

I know one guy who's a B in foil, only ever fences epee in tournaments (never in practice), but is an A in epee. I suspect being reasonable at foil is a pretty good start, particularly with the new timings.

[DHCJr]

Why don't you ask Michael Marx, an Olympian in both Epee and Foil. Another different example is a 6 time Olympian Peter Westbrook. At an Olympic Festival, one of the Foilist broke his hand and Peter was asked to fill in. He fenced 4 bouts, he Won 4 bouts.

It may be rare, but it is not something that hasn't happened before.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Why don't you ask Michael Marx, an Olympian in both Epee and Foil. Another different example is a 6 time Olympian Peter Westbrook. At an Olympic Festival, one of the Foilist broke his hand and Peter was asked to fill in. He fenced 4 bouts, he Won 4 bouts.

It may be rare, but it is not something that hasn't happened before.

And this is the rub.

A good fencer is a good fencer.

They have the good base skills, adaptability and mental discipline to be good at more than one weapon. Tactical awareness, experience and plain ol' natural talent are major kickers.

[veeco]

I would add to that that the caveat is that I think in modern times it might not be possible to realize the same feats as the 2 fine fencers that Don has mentionned.

Not to belittle Marx's and Westbrook's accomplishments, but those happened in the US, at a time when fencing wasn't as successful and popular as it is now... I can't imagine a single fencer nowadays who could be successful internationaly in more than one weapon. They all have their own specificities and require a lot of training and discipline to be able to do well. Time constraints means that it might not be possible to do well in 2 weapons nowadays.

As for switching from foil to epee, when done early enough, it is not difficult, and usually the time "lost" spent on foil isn't so much lost as the background and common techniques in both weapons can be reused in one and the other. However, if you want to be successful, focus on only one. If your coach is good and recommends epee to you over foil, listen to his arguments, see if you like epee more than foil, and go for it if it is the case!

[JEC]

First, welcome. I'm glad that you saw the beacon of light. Epee is a lot of fun. No longer you need to impress the referee to earn that point. Second, parries are important in both weapons, but in epee, counterattacks are critical.

Now, by now you have taken a lesson or two. What do you think?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Originally Posted by Gav

Why the hell is coach switching you? Surely you are the one to decide that?

... As you are fairly new to fencing anyway (~4 months) ...

If he's a newbie fencer, it might simply be a matter of the coach introducing a new weapon so the student gets an opportunity to make an informed choice later.

[Sciurus-Rex]

In response to the question and general direction of this thread: The choice of weapon and ability to swap between (or among) two (or three) depends in large degree on the individual. Aside from an ability to commit to the effort of mastery itself, you can't ignore your own personality and physical and emotional response to each weapon -- some people tend to reflexively counter-attack more easily than others, for example. And then there are those who can switch gears without any problems at all. (We hate those people; they deserve to die die die!)

So whether foil will be a major benefit in your epee depends on you. Practically speaking, foil training does provide a sound basis for the other two weapons as well. ... Footwork, sense of distance, tempo, point control -- an understanding of these elements is vital.

[parryDoh]

Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex

If he's a newbie fencer, it might simply be a matter of the coach introducing a new weapon so the student gets an opportunity to make an informed choice later.

Or a Epee club that uses foil as a starting weapon, I see that at my club.

Being a mainly epee club here, I fence with them when foil isnt available. I do pretty well against em, enough so I just ordered some epee blades from fencing.net here. I been told fencing epee hurts your foil game but it seems to help mine, helps with timing and counterattacks. But I could see it hurt someones foil game if they dont have a strong understanding of right of way.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by veeco

Not to belittle Marx's and Westbrook's accomplishments, but those happened in the US, at a time when fencing wasn't as successful and popular as it is now...

Marx, as a foil fencer, was [is?] brilliant in terms of situational awareness. He is a quiet and very smart fencer--intelligence and *especially* self-control are the soul of épée fencing.

Originally Posted by veeco

As for switching from foil to epee, when done early enough, it is not difficult, and usually the time "lost" spent on foil isn't so much lost as the background and common techniques in both weapons can be reused in one and the other.

Christ, I'm still unlearning tactical kinks that a year of foil training put in my épée fencing all those years ago. And ten minutes of serious foil fencing screws up my épée distance for about a week.

I think, though, a younger fencer who is interested in épée should completely bypass foil in that young fencers are innately aggressive and creative--the sooner that an épéeist learns that there is little percentage in being overly complex with his attacks and to channel his creativity into the counterattack the better.

I think the current level of junior épée fencers in the US is testimony to this. The kids look too "mature" when I watch them now. Back in the day they would branch out into épée with all kinds of foil, and even sabre, baggage that made for some very silly touches.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by JEC

Epee is a lot of fun. No longer you need to impress the referee to earn that point.

I distinctly recall someone (not you) trying to convince me that his opponent was offstrip with both feet (I thought one foot).

Why the hell is coach switching you? Surely you are the one to decide that?

Many times a fencer who is not experienced with the sport or the varieties of the weapons will not realize they're better suited to a different weapon than the one they've started on. If fencing was only foil, I would have quit quickly and moved on to some other sport, instead of having my coach switch to sabre and make me love it enough that I want to be involved till I am bedridden.

[Linkthealmighty]

I started fencing a while back (like 7 years but I took a 'break' at one point), anyway I've always been told that you should start with a year of foil to get the basics down, I figure that means footwork, point control and what not. I never really moved out of foil, tried epee once and didn't care for it too much and I'd like to do sabre at some point but not enough to seek it out. Again back to the point, I agree with Gav, find your own weapon and stick to that.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex

If he's a newbie fencer, it might simply be a matter of the coach introducing a new weapon so the student gets an opportunity to make an informed choice later.

That's not the impression I was getting from his post. I see that saeras hasn't replied back yet - I hope they he does so that we get a better idea of the coaches reasoning or whether it was saeras's own idea. After all saeras does mention that he wants to do all 3.