Questions from a returning sabreur

[Philistine]

I fenced (somewhat) competitively back in college in the late 80's and shortly thereafter, but before the rule changes and widespread electric fencing. Since I'm now getting back into it, I've got a few questions.

First, with regard to no forward crossing over the feet, does that apply only on the attack or even for movement into distance? (As I read the rule it is somewhat ambiguous, falling as it does in a section relating to attacks but seemingly making no distinction to attacks or movement).

Second, what is target now? Not the fencing hand? Is the rear hand now off-target? Also, as I understand it, an off-target hit does not stop the action--correct?

Finally, a more general question if anyone can answer...what are the major differences between dry/fleching and electric/non-fleching sabre? Is distance closer? Do more attacks land by whipping over? Anything else?

Thanks for your help!

--Philistine

[Peach]

You may not cross over going forward at all, whether in preparation or in the course of the attack. You can cross over after the touch.

The back of the front hand is no longer target - the target extends from the wristbones up the arm. Newer, stiffer blades are required for competition. Whipovers are therefore much less likely; they're still possible but if your distance is correct very unlikely.

Back hand is not target. Off target does not stop the action.

I don't know how much has changed, because I started fencing sabre right after the fleche was taken out. I do remember watching sabre before I took it up and what I saw is nothing like what it is now.

--Delia

[Inquartata]

As to the fleche, strictly speaking it is now a prohibited action. You can still do it, but if you do not hit ( thus stopping the action ) before your rear foot passes your leading one you will be carded.

A sort of ungainly substitute has arisen to take the place of the true fleche. Usually termed "the flunge", it is done in the same manner as the old fleche but recovering with a sort of forward hop at the end so that the rear leg doesn't cross the plane of the forward one at any time.

[sabreur]

Speaking as someone who fenced dry sabre for six years, from 1977-1983, then took up electric sabre six years ago.

1. Distance is a little shorter--sabre fencers now fence in about advance lunge distance. The good guys spend a lot of time in what I call critical distance--I think of it as the distance where, if both sabreurs are extended in a point in line, their points would be a couple inches shy of each other's bells.

2. Tempo is called extremely tightly. Basically, if you have a good director, an action where both fencers begin forward together, but one begins the final action a fraction earlier, the one who begins first will get priority. The classic example is from the start lines--both fencers make an advance-lunge and hit, but fencer A takes a long, slow advance before the lunge and fencer B makes a short advance and begins his lunge while A is still advancing--touch to B. (Those of you who want to discuss whether this is in accordance with rules can go suck eggs--I've been talked to death on the issue, I know what is in the rule book (both English and French versions) and I know how this action is called here--if you don't agree, take it up with the FIE.)

3. Precise footwork has become much more important. Crossovers and the fleche made it possible to basically run your opponent down--we didn't have many attacks landing short back in the dry days. Now, a "parry with distance" is a common defense--you invite the attack, get your opponent to finish short, then begin your own attack.

4. Although the stiffer blades have made it possible to parry riposte again, you will find that it is considerably harder than it used to be to parry--IMNSHO, this is primarily because a lot of actions that were considered parried in the old days were in fact mal parre. While a parry-riposte has become common with the stiffer blades, a counter-parry riposte remains a rarity.

5. There is evidently a move this year to recognize the point in line more frequently. I think this would be a good change, but haven't been at a tournament to actually see how the actions are being called.

All in all, I find electric sabre to be more interesting and precise that dry sabre was. In particular, eliminating the running attacks that used to be the rule in sabre is a great step forward (but not a cross-over!).

Regards, MR

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: sabreur ]

[Cutter]

I agree with the issue of tempo being a huge issue - at Utah recently I won a DE 15-1 and all but 2 of those 15 were tempo. Not much in creativity but it got the job done.

[Inquartata]

Yeah, and sometimes all you have to do is think about taking a step without extending your arm to get called "in preparation". ( Ask me how I know. )

[oiuyt]

Well of COURSE if you're sitting and thinking you're in preparation... we don't allow THINKING during the action in sabre!

-B

[sabreur]

Originally posted by Cutter:
<STRONG>I agree with the issue of tempo being a huge issue - at Utah recently I won a DE 15-1 and all but 2 of those 15 were tempo. Not much in creativity but it got the job done.</STRONG>

Yeah, but that was your opponent's fault--there are a lot of things you can do if you are losing touches on tempo--for instance, step forward, jump back, let the opponent end short, then take over the attack. I think the tight tempo actually brings a lot of sophisticated play into sabre, as long as the referee makes the calls consistently.

Regards, MR

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by oiuyt:
<STRONG>Well of COURSE if you're sitting and thinking you're in preparation... we don't allow THINKING during the action in sabre!

-B </STRONG>

Let alone sitting!

[Philistine]

Thanks for the replies all. I think I'll miss general crossing-over in closing distance much more than I will fleching. It was more something that was unconscious, whereas I actually had to plan a fleche in advance. Oh well. Luckily, I'm taking a beginners class to try and regain some semblance of footwork.

Acclimating to closer distance should be interesting also, as I try to change my instincts(whenever I picked up a foil, I always drove anyone I was fencing crazy because I kept up saber distance).

Hope to see some of you on the strip!

--Philistine

[HilandDoug]

Like Musashi said in the Book of Five Rings: In the moment your opponent is deciding where to attack you, you attack!

[Inquartata]

I too started fencing in drier days, Philistine. It was infuriatingly difficult to rid myself of the habit of the pass-avant, but eventually I managed...and I don't really miss it any more. It DID clean things up quite a bit, and restored a semblance of the phrase---much as I hate to validate the establishment of special rules for one weapon and not the others.