Update the National Standings pleeeease!

[betty]

Wouldn't it be great if right after an NAC is completed and done with, the USFA would post the updated National Standings before the deadline for entering the next National event, which in this case is JO - DEADLINE TOMORROW JAN 19!! - Or move the deadline until the updating could be posted.

[Craig]

Wrong forum. Moving.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The USFA needs needs an automated program to keep track of the standings.

[Army Fencer]

http://www.fencing.net/forums/showth...564#post365564

Here's senior men's epee down to 40.

[silver2e]

The USFA needs needs an automated program to keep track of the standings.

The delay also impacts the new usfa international programs website, too. It seems that without current rankings for fencers, a saber event is still listed as open even though registration deadline of 1/19 is passed.

[betty]

... and some World Cups are on the list in bold as "Designated", but when you look at the points standings, their points earned are among the "non-designated".

Example from the site of the UNITED STATES FENCING INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM:

Women's Epee International Calendar [ Home ]
UPDATED: Thursday, December 22, 2005 09:45:23 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Designated Competitions are in BOLD

* indicates change from original FIE Schedule

Shown in bold as designated, the Trophée Trinacria Junior WC, Palermo (which in reality took place in Sabbiadoro near Venice! never an update there), but in the points standings it's awarded as a non-designated.
Shown in bold as designated, the Ponte de Sor Junior WC, but in the points standings it's awarded as a non-designated.


"The USFA has the right to change the rules at any time, even after a competition took place". I couldn't find this in the Athletes Hand Book.

[T]

Even if a tournament is "designated" it MUST have 10 of the top 32 (as listed before the event) in the world cup point standings in attendance AND have at least 5 countries represented. If it does not meet these critera, it will roll to Group I. Lignano (and Pont de Sor) did not meet this criteria. It did not have 10 of the top 32 juniors present. This has been the case with the Montreal JWC for the last couple of years. It has been Designated but did not meet the criteria above - therefore, it has been counted as a group I event (with quite a low SF). These standards apply to all weapons and are listed in the Athlete Handbook.

I believe that there should be a good faith effort to make Designated tournaments those that usually meet this critiera. In the past, Palermo JWC has met this criteria but perhaps with the change of venue so close to the tournament date, some higher ranked athletes didn't go. Pont de Sor has never (it has been on the calendar for at least 3 years) met this criteria. The Louisville JWC never met this criteria either in womens epee (I'm not sure about other weapons).

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

This failure to update the points standings within a timely manner is a key failure in the anderson administration. Its costing the american WC fencer money.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Really?

1. Name the American WC fencers that are losing money.

2. What is the percentage of WC fencers losing money, compared to all WC fencers?

3. What is the ratio of WC fencers losing money under the current administration, compared to WC fencers losing money by tardy points results under the last four administrations?

If you don't have those figures well in hand, then making a blanket statement as in your last post is absurd.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I figure if fencers dont have the current points available for viewing, it costs them money on plane tickets, since they have to book plane tickets to WC's sooner than if the points were updated earlier.

Anyway, to answer your questions...

1. I can't say, it would be rude.

2. Approximately 22.8 percent for the US fencer, compared to 11.7 on average for all fencers world wide.

3. Fencers today lose about 1/8th more do to inflation. Failings of the previous administrations do not excuse the current failures! The past cannot be changed, so we might as well change the future.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I figure if fencers dont have the current points available for viewing, it costs them money on plane tickets, since they have to book plane tickets to WC's sooner than if the points were updated earlier.

Here's a little tip for you, for when you begin to travel overseas. As a general rule, the earlier you book a ticket, the cheaper it is. By applying your convoluted logic, the USFA is actually saving people money. This would then be a key success of the Anderson administration.

1. I can't say, it would be rude..

Not to mention the fact that you don't know any?

I'd think those fencers would welcome the personalization of the effect from glacial indifference of the heartless souls at the USFA who dally at points postings.

If you could find any great number of them.

2. Approximately 22.8 percent for the US fencer, compared to 11.7 on average for all fencers world wide..

(from one of my favorite games) I call BS!

Again, you don't know, do you? Yet, you're happy to spout undocumented allegations.

3. Fencers today lose about 1/8th more do to inflation. Failings of the previous administrations do not excuse the current failures! The past cannot be changed, so we might as well change the future.

1. You are having trouble documenting anything.
2. If you don't know how bad an alleged problem was in the past, then you can draw no conclusions about whether the current practice is better or worse.

I'm surprised you haven't begun wearing a tiny little labcoat, complete with miniature stethoscope...to go with the e-mails from Dr. Lutz fondly referring to you as: "My Dear Mini-Me"

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Here's a little tip for you, for when you begin to travel overseas. As a general rule, the earlier you book a ticket, the cheaper it is. By applying your convoluted logic, the USFA is actually saving people money. This would then be a key success of the Anderson administration.

Sooner to the world cup, which would be NOT earlier. Booking tickets 7 days in advance is a gouge. If the USFA could give the competitor another 7 days by posting the points immediately after the tournament, maybe it would save him some $$?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Another little tip...a misplaced modifier is not your friend.

In any event, the deadline for overseas designated WC competitions is usually at least a month before the event.

There are requirements of certain points list standings before you can even be considered by the USFA, but you're free to get on the waiting list if you're close.

If you need those last few points from Houston to move up into a lock for a WC spot, just by fantastic coincidence, the same person who tabulates the Points List is the same person who tabulates the WC competitors list, so you're covered.

It's true that sometimes the people on the waiting list get notified fairly late, when one of the fencers ranked above them withdraws. Corinne Greenman does an excellent job of trying to keep track of this and let people know their status. Part of the price you pay for being lower on the list, though, is sometimes having to decide at the last minute whether you still want to go to a WC or not.

[T]

Each athlete (or parent, coach of the athlete) is really responsible for their own destiny. If updated point standings are critical to your participation in a world cup, then you should really learn how to update them for your own purposes (it really isn't that hard). I know at all times what the point standings are for my 2 girls regardless of whether the USFA calculates them or not. I can also guarantee that you better check their math and their application of the selection criteria in the athlete handbook! I am not complaining (not at all - I think Corinne does a pretty good job all things considered) however, it is the fencer's responsibility to make sure that you cover your own position. I can also say that you need to learn how to calculate strength factors too! To do this, you need to have the current FIE point standings before the tournament of interest (and a copy of the formula in the athlete handbook). I keep a copy of the current standings before my girls go off to a world cup just to double check SFs and whether the tournament meets Group II criteria. For the most part, the USFA is pretty correct (at least in WE). I do not caluclate it as precisely as the USFA however -- I get a ballpark idea of what it is and call it "close enough".

As far as money goes, I cannot say that the lack of updated standings has cost us any money. Since the point standings that decide WC selection are a month before the event, it hasn't mattered. In addition, the USFA (actually the weapons squad) gives a little money for going to world cups sometimes, however athletes in these spots are pretty secured in their top rankings to be eligible for money. Many times, money is spent to send seniors to grand prix/team events and these standings are calculated before the "team" is decided. I can say that the USFA is a little slow on reimbursement (but they have always been slow). This doesn't cost anything but the lost interest I would gain if I had the money in a money market account - given the 2-3% interest on those accounts, I can't say that I am losing bundles of money on that.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Each athlete (or parent, coach of the athlete) is really responsible for their own destiny. If updated point standings are critical to your participation in a world cup, then you should really learn how to update them for your own purposes (it really isn't that hard). I know at all times what the point standings are for my 2 girls regardless of whether the USFA calculates them or not. I can also guarantee that you better check their math and their application of the selection criteria in the athlete handbook! I am not complaining (not at all - I think Corinne does a pretty good job all things considered) however, it is the fencer's responsibility to make sure that you cover your own position. I can also say that you need to learn how to calculate strength factors too! To do this, you need to have the current FIE point standings before the tournament of interest (and a copy of the formula in the athlete handbook). I keep a copy of the current standings before my girls go off to a world cup just to double check SFs and whether the tournament meets Group II criteria. For the most part, the USFA is pretty correct (at least in WE). I do not caluclate it as precisely as the USFA however -- I get a ballpark idea of what it is and call it "close enough".

As far as money goes, I cannot say that the lack of updated standings has cost us any money. Since the point standings that decide WC selection are a month before the event, it hasn't mattered. In addition, the USFA (actually the weapons squad) gives a little money for going to world cups sometimes, however athletes in these spots are pretty secured in their top rankings to be eligible for money. Many times, money is spent to send seniors to grand prix/team events and these standings are calculated before the "team" is decided. I can say that the USFA is a little slow on reimbursement (but they have always been slow). This doesn't cost anything but the lost interest I would gain if I had the money in a money market account - given the 2-3% interest on those accounts, I can't say that I am losing bundles of money on that.

Okee dokee. That settles it.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

You forgot the: "I was wrong and unnecessarily libeled the USFA" part, though.

[Inquartata]

And the updated standings are now up on the USFA site.

[betty]

Another little tip...a misplaced modifier is not your friend.

In any event, the deadline for overseas designated WC competitions is usually at least a month before the event.

There are requirements of certain points list standings before you can even be considered by the USFA, but you're free to get on the waiting list if you're close.

If you need those last few points from Houston to move up into a lock for a WC spot, just by fantastic coincidence, the same person who tabulates the Points List is the same person who tabulates the WC competitors list, so you're covered.

It's true that sometimes the people on the waiting list get notified fairly late, when one of the fencers ranked above them withdraws. Corinne Greenman does an excellent job of trying to keep track of this and let people know their status. Part of the price you pay for being lower on the list, though, is sometimes having to decide at the last minute whether you still want to go to a WC or not.

<In any event, the deadline for overseas designated WC competitions is usually at least a month before the event.>
It's 21 days exactly.

As for posting points standings ASAP, in the specific case of the Juniors who have a tight calendar deadline for making their points and get their spot on the US Team, it would have been great to have the updating before the deadline for entering JOs. That deadline was strategically set on January 19, 3 days after the last day of the Houston NAC, which gave plenty of time for an updating. But no, and we are still waiting. If the updating cannot be posted in a timely manner, at least give an extension for entering JOs until the USFA website posts it.
Without entering the debate of the World Cups, let’s stay in the US and argue that some fencers might have been in a position to skip the expense of entering Junior Olympics had they seen their exact position and the position of the fencers around them. I don’t know about you, but for many, the $80 entry cost is too much money to be wasted, and an airline ticket in this country cannot be changed or cancelled without a stiff fee. Going to Hartford is an expensive proposition, but most of you senior fencers wouldn’t know about that. How do the people of Hartford do it! Have you seen the prices there! This is a luxurious competition. It might have been cheaper to go to Hawaii. Now, that’s an idea! But that’s another subject for another thread.

[betty]

<And the updated standings are now up on the USFA site.>

too late! the deadline for entering JOs has past.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

<In any event, the deadline for overseas designated WC competitions is usually at least a month before the event.>
It's 21 days exactly..

It depends on the event. In some cases, the USFA deadline can be more than five weeks before the event.

As for posting points standings ASAP, in the specific case of the Juniors who have a tight calendar deadline for making their points and get their spot on the US Team, it would have been great to have the updating before the deadline for entering JOs.

Of course it would have been great, but I suspect it made little practical difference. Since you started with an Junior women's epee reference, let's look at the standings. The ladies in fifth through 7th place (the most logical ones to try and grab that last 4th place on the team) were more than 500 points back after Houston. Each already has three sets of points in Junior NAC competitions, so they could only replace a lower score for a net of under 300 points gain, assuming they won the JO event. It wouldn't do them any good to go.

Modling is the only WE JR WC left on the schedule. Any junior epee fencer thinking they were truly in the hunt for a team spot should have registered long ago for that meet, and the chance to earn a bucket of points sufficient to make a difference in team standings. The deadline for Modling was 1/4/06...long before Houston.

Going to Hartford is an expensive proposition, but most of you senior fencers wouldn’t know about that.

I have a fencer going to nearly all Cadet, Junior and Senior NACs and WC competitions. You're preaching to the expense choir here.

But the truth is that in most years, you send a fencer to the JOs for fun and the experience, not to make a team...because the JOs seldom play a pivotal role in getting on a National Team.

Too late in the season, too few points in play.