Senior Men's Epee: Points List after Houston

[Army Fencer]

I may have made some mistakes, but here's the new list down to 40th.

1 Kelsey 5491
2 Mattern 3097
3 Sherrill 2690
4 Solomon 2497
5 Viviani 2245
6 Rivera 2235
7 Ungar 2075
8 Bratton 2040
9 Abend 1958
10 Erbele 1665
11 Hansen 1556
12 Sulat 1383
13T Cox 1381
13T Vaksman 1381
15 French, P 1319
16 Zucker 1260
17 Exum 1255
18 Harder 1200
19 Baby 1162
20 Ordody 1141
21 Henderson 1127
22 Thompson 1066
23 Stockdale 954
24 Howard 880
25 Tausig 870
26 Lichten 849
27 Feldschuh 796
28 Smith 785
29 Bruno 700
30 Rose 695
31 Wicas 686
32 Kenney, C 636
33 Manske 618
34 Hurme 582
35 O'Neal 560
36 O'Loughlin 535
37 Bethel 533
38 Rostal 506
39 Marshall 502
40 Roiz 500

[whtouche]

Is soren thompson not doing USFA stuff this year?

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Is soren thompson not doing USFA stuff this year?

I'm not sure what his strategy is. I'll ask him next time I see him.

[RITFencing]

A friend of mine goes to Princeton, and I hear that Soren would really like to graduate at some point in time, especially considering all the time he took off to train for the olympics. Just what I heard through the grapevine, though.

[edwin012290]

wow....i cant believe my old research lit teacher, mrs. ungar, was benjamin ungar's mother. neither did i know her son was that good. sheesh

[betty]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

I may have made some mistakes, but here's the new list down to 40th.

1 Kelsey 5491
2 Mattern 3097
3 Sherrill 2690
4 Solomon 2497
5 Viviani 2245
6 Rivera 2235
7 Ungar 2075
8 Bratton 2040
9 Abend 1958
10 Erbele 1665
11 Hansen 1556
12 Sulat 1383
13T Cox 1381
13T Vaksman 1381
15 French, P 1319
16 Zucker 1260
17 Exum 1255
18 Harder 1200
19 Baby 1162
20 Ordody 1141
21 Henderson 1127
22 Thompson 1066
23 Stockdale 954
24 Howard 880
25 Tausig 870
26 Lichten 849
27 Feldschuh 796
28 Smith 785
29 Bruno 700
30 Rose 695
31 Wicas 686
32 Kenney, C 636
33 Manske 618
34 Hurme 582
35 O'Neal 560
36 O'Loughlin 535
37 Bethel 533
38 Rostal 506
39 Marshall 502
40 Roiz 500

I know you tried, but it's the juniors who need their standings before making or not (expensive) commitments to the next world cup. It's Junior Team positioning right now, remember?

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by betty

I know you tried, but it's the juniors who need their standings before making or not (expensive) commitments to the next world cup. It's Junior Team positioning right now, remember?

Having never been on the Junior Points list, it's not something with which I have intimate knowledge. All I tried to do was put up the Senior Men's Epee list, that's all. I'm sorry that it didn't help you.

[smurfette]

While it certainly is inconvenient that the USFA have not posted the point standings, for now, can't any junior fencer find out generally where s/he stands, if it is that urgent? After all, Army Fencer did it for the whole Senior Men's epee points list.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Army: what formula are you using to calculate the points, since the Group II numbers were not set up at the time of publication of the Athlete's Handbook?

Four best domestic, plus four best international, or can extra, higher value international results override NAC scores?

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Army: what formula are you using to calculate the points, since the Group II numbers were not set up at the time of publication of the Athlete's Handbook?

Four best domestic, plus four best international, or can extra, higher value international results override NAC scores?

(Three best domestic or Group II) plus any Group I.

That's the way it was last season, and for the people with a bunch of Group I and Group II points, I just added or subtracted based on the results from Houston.

I have no clue how to calculate Junior points because I've never had any stake in them (sorry).

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Army: I'm trying to calculate the Senior points, but the Handbook says to tabulate four best results from Domestic meets.

3. After Jan NAC to before Apr NAC
All previous season unless indicated
• Dec NAC DIV I (current season)
• Jan NAC DIV I (current season)
• Apr NAC DIV I
• Jul DIV I Nationals

It also says:

Points earned at Satellite or “B” competitions that are not restricted by age can be considered Group I Points for Senior point standings.

Group II Rolling Point Standings are calculated in a similar manner to the Group II Team Points

Group II Point calculations unavailable at time of publication.

Yet the National Rankings table on the USFA page makes no reference to Group 1 nor Group 2 points, just designated and non-designated. Hence my confusion about what counts and what doesn't, and how many international points count for what total.

[Army Fencer]

First, I screwed up with what I said was my calculation:

(Top three national and Group I tournaments) and any Group II

Group I = Non-designated
Group II = Designated

As far as the top four national tournaments is concerned, that's news to me (and rather sucky news because I didn't get points at the last NAC). I'll have to do some research and probably need to redo the number.

Does that help?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Ok, I think I've finally deciphered what the USFA is doing to calculate senior points. This is the only combination I could find that comes anywhere close to what they have posted on the website.

First, you take the 3, not four as per the Handbook, best domestic scores, plus the four best international scores, designated or not.

If you only have 2 or less domestic scores, then next best international scores are added in to the domestic count to bring that count to three scores. If you have any left over international scores that exceed any of the three domestic scores, you substitute the greater international for the lesser domestic.

Seems weird, but it makes the point totals appear to match what's on the USFA website.

[Army Fencer]

I think you're right: the points right before the Houston NAC only included three national tournaments (contrary to the Athlete's Handbook).

As far as understand, designated points from international competitions are added to your score... not sure about a number limit. Non-designated points are the only points that replace your worst national score.

[KD5MDK]

Ahh, reverse engineering...

[T]

There was actually an email sent out in November detailing the selection critieria for the senior teams. This is not in the athlete handbook as it must have gone to press before they made up their mind. You can see that they count 3 of the 4 Group I competitions and up to 5 Group II events (for m & w epee).

The rolling points will be used to determine ranking until after the April NAC. After that, everything that is not in one of the categories below gets dropped (ie, last season's world cup events).


Below are the selection criteria for the 2006 Sr World Team. These were not available at the time of the Athlete Handbook Publication.

Men’s Epee, Men’s Foil, Men’s Sabre, Women’s Epee, Women’s Foil

SUM OF GROUP I AND GROUP II
GROUP I – SUM OF THREE HIGHEST POINTS, 1-5,
1 NAC Division I competitions [Dec., Jan., April]
2. Division I National Championships [previous season]
3 European “B” Competitions [Dec.- July]
4 Competitions specified in item 6 below and not included in Group II sum.
5. Non Designated “A” Competitions [Dec.- July]

GROUP II – BY WEAPON: SUM OF THE POINTS AT ‘X’ COMPETITIONS LISTED IN THE TABLE BELOW
6. Designated Senior “A” Competitions [Dec.- July] & previous season World
Championships (for World Championships – only top 32 results may be counted).
Epee Foil Sabre
Men’s 5 6 6
Women’s 5 4 NA

[Capt. Slo-mo]

And what about WS? Since that wasn't on your list...

[T]

Sorry, I thought we were just talking about epee. WS is below.

Women’s Sabre
GROUP I – SUM OF THREE HIGHEST POINTS, 1-3
1. NAC Division I competitions [Dec., Jan., April]
2. Division I National Championships [previous season]
3. Competitions specified in item 4 below and not included in Group II sum.

GROUP II – SUM OF THE POINTS AT 6 COMPETITIONS LISTED BELOW
4. Designated Senior “A” Competitions [Dec.- July] & previous season World Championships

[Capt. Slo-mo]

T:

Do you have a copy of the full description for Senior Team points details? (as in, what's in the "listed below", non-designated events, etc)

I seem to have not gotten that e-mail.

Thanks!

[T]

I have copied the email to a Word document and attached it. There is some other stuff included in the document as well that was sent out in one of those bulk emails from the USFA sometime in November. That is all of the info I have.