Beating the hell out of me

[Grendel]

My salle has this new girl who loves to talk about how great she is and how she fenced at nationals and all that stuff. That's okay with me because talk is cheap and I beat her pretty much everytime we work out. The problem is, she's one those flickers. To say she is a flicker sums up her technique. That's okay too, because if you have a well schooled traditional approach, flickers are easy to dismantle and destroy. My complaint is she whips me with her blade the whole time and it hurts! We fence foil and I go home with painful bruises on my weapon hand and arm. Her style, in my opinion, is much better suited for sabre. Anyway, other than being ungentlemanly and beating her with my blade to show her how it feels, what approach do some of you who fence use when you encounter one who flicks? If I were a woman, or she a man, we'd settle it outside, but that's not an option.

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: Grendel ]

[big poppa]

She may not be aware of how bad her flicks are in that they are beating the s**t out of you.I would gently mention to her that she hurts and a good (correct) flick should not.Other than that I would fence with her .Imean what do you gain buy fencing her unless you are in to S&M. Of cours you could have an accident and hit her like she is doing you, but she is probably too dense to see your point of view anyway.

[Craig]

Grendel,

1) Say "That hurts, please stop whacking me if you can't land the flick.

If the fencer continues then:

2) Nice hard direct action to the center of the chest or just inside target below the arm pit.

Cheers,
Craig

[d8m]

I am on roll of ranting on topics, so here goes...

1) this is not a case of what to do against a 'flicker', but what to do against someone who needs to learn control. Don't give flickers a bad name just because one person who can't flick hurts you.

2) Don't take it personally. Leave it all on the strip, there is no reason to take it 'outside' even if you were of the same gender. It's only a sport.

3) Just because she hits hard doesn't make her dense.

4) Women and men are different physically, this should come as no suprise. This however means they fence very differently. Her strength and her (poor against you) flicks probably give her a huge advantage over the women she competes against, but against someone who is bigger, stronger and faster, they just don't work. So she tries to compete with men by being stronger and more aggressive. Yes this means beating the crap out of you. But unless there is some other issue going on, don't take it personally, don't get upset.

5) Solutions,

A) talk to her about it. (Chances are, unless you approach the situation correctly she will get upset with you.)

B) Meet force with force. Which usually only breeds more force from your opponent. Most competitors don't back down, short of serious injury.

C) But probably the easiest solution, don't fence her until you see improvement in her control and technique.

[attila]

Craigs hints are good. I like to go with sarcastic humor though. Say stufflike" Damn, you would have won that bout if we were fencing sabre" Or just don't fence that person in training, but hit hard and strong in tournaments. If you are approached and asked to fence politely decline by stating something to the effect that " your bruises from the last time you two fenced hadn't come down, and you will let her know when you are ready for another dose of '***** slapping'". Hell, have a little fun with this thing....

[Grendel]

2) Don't take it personally. Leave it all on the strip, there is no reason to take it 'outside' even if you were of the same gender. It's only a sport.

Thanks Dad!

3) Just because she hits hard doesn't make her dense.

Didn't say it did, but now that you mention it, I beg to differ.

1) Don't give flickers a bad name just because one person who can't flick hurts you.

How can I give a flicker a bad name? Only the flicker can give herself a bad name.

4) Women and men are different physically, this should come as no suprise. This however means they fence very differently. Her strength and her (poor against you) flicks probably give her a huge advantage over the women she competes against, but against someone who is bigger, stronger and faster, they just don't work. So she tries to compete with men by being stronger and more aggressive. Yes this means beating the crap out of you. But unless there is some other issue going on, don't take it personally, don't get upset.

Nonsense. I've fenced with and been beaten by far too many good female fencers to buy into this rubbish about her lacking technique because she's a woman. SHAME ON YOU!

[HilandDoug]

I prefer the sarcastic humor approach, but then, I've been accused more than once of being a bit harsh around the edges. Next time she asks you to fence foil, accept, grab a sabre, and assume the en-guarde stance. If she laughs, you've taken down the barrier to discussion, if not, fence her with the sabre.

[latenight]

Use your "well schooled traditional approach"
and stay out of the way.

[arcon]

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Grendel]

Sorry,
I didn't mean to sound high and mighty with my "well schooled traditional approach" comment. I was simply referring to thrusting as opposed to slapping or nicking. You see, as opposed to learning to parry and riposte, a lot of fencers just power-swing through your attacks in hopes that they can just make some kind of contact with the hope that they can trick the machine into thinking they made a real touch with the tip of the blade.

[d8m]

Originally posted by Grendel:
<STRONG>

Nonsense. I've fenced with and been beaten by far too many good female fencers to buy into this rubbish about her lacking technique because she's a woman. SHAME ON YOU!</STRONG>

Um...
You are misunderstanding several points.

It's not her because she's a woman that she lacks technique. She lacks control, not because she's a woman but just because she is that type of person. When she competes against women she is most likely able to overpower other women, and since that's her only game she doesn't know what to do when she meets someone who is able to overpower her. Her result is to try to hit harder.

So please don't words into my mouth.
I never said she lacks technique because she is woman. In fact most of the top female fencers have better technique than the men.

Her hitting hard translates into her being dense? How so? Somebody besides you said it, I merely mentioned it so you don't fall into this type of thinking. Poor body control is a physical problem. Or maybe her coach encourages it and doesn't teach her properly. (you should be able to answer that question.)

And again, it's a lack of technique/control problem. Not the case of her being a flicker. Why the distinction? I've come accross many people who don't flick who have poor body control and hurt just as much as I have people who flick and hurt. Kim (KOR), the current olympic gold medalist, loves to flick. It's his favorite action. There is nothing wrong with flicking or that style, so don't imply that just because she flicks that's why it hurts. She hurts you because she has poor body control. Even if she didn't flick, it would hurt.

Why? Because she, as an individual, lacks control.

You asked for advice. I merely gave it.
If you don't want it, don't ask.

And the sarcastic approach does work if you are not going fence her.

[Grendel]

d8m,

Calm down. It's not worth an anyeurism (or however you spell it). But, in case you didn't know (and you seem to be completely unware of the following fact), the foil is a thrusting weapon. That means that you can only score with the tip of the blade. Why are you so savagely defending the right to included slashing actions as a strategy in foil? It's kind of bizarre.

I would love to hear the comments of female fencers regarding this matter. Poor d8m seems to think that women can appreciate being whacked with a piece of steel.

And as for:

In fact most of the top female fencers have better technique than the men.

What a silly generalization. That statement is 100% unsubstantiated.

[veeco]

Grendel,

It sounds you are more upset of being beated by this fencer than by the fact that she hurts you when she flicks.

May I suggest you try one of the classical fencing clubs in your area? You would probably get a better kick at it.

[d8m]

Originally posted by Grendel:
<STRONG>d8m,

Calm down. It's not worth an anyeurism (or however you spell it). </STRONG>

Um... Not having one, but thanks for your concern.

Originally posted by Grendel:
<STRONG>But, in case you didn't know (and you seem to be completely unware of the following fact), the foil is a thrusting weapon. That means that you can only score with the tip of the blade. Why are you so savagely defending the right to included slashing actions as a strategy in foil? It's kind of bizarre. </STRONG>

I am not savagely defending the right to slash. A flick is perfectly legitimate technique for scoring in foil. If you aren't aware of that I suggest you start watching some of the top level fencers.

Originally posted by Grendel:
<STRONG>I would love to hear the comments of female fencers regarding this matter. Poor d8m seems to think that women can appreciate being whacked with a piece of steel.
</STRONG>

Where do you get the idea that I say that anyone likes getting whacked with a piece of steel? Personally, I don't fence people who I think will injure me. I tell others to do the same if they fear injury.

Originally posted by Grendel:
<STRONG>
What a silly generalization. That statement is 100% unsubstantiated. </STRONG>

Do you read about sports much? Do you watch sports? Have you ever coached? Or learned about different coaching methods?

I have. Men and women are physically different. No suprise right? Pyschologically they are also different. They learn differently, and they are motivated differently. Mia Hamm, she plays soccer, months ago summed it up in an article in the LA Times. I don't have the exact quote but it basically described the differences in men and womens sports. The women are more technical, with a stronger basis in fundamentals. While the men come on so aggressively, relying on athleticism, attitude and power.

She was talking about how men's soccer was very different from women's. But aplied it to tennis, basketball, and many other sports.

And before you start saying how sexist it all sounds, different is not a good/bad judgement. Just an observation that the games are different.

[Peach]

Speaking as a woman sabre fencer, keep in mind that foil flicking (even when done properly) is NOT sabre technique. Yes, I get bruises, but it's not because my opponents flick; it's more likely that they are finishing too close and hitting me with the forte, or in other cases that they are hitting with the whole arm instead of the fingers. So unless you don't care about giving the wrong impression of sabre technique, please don't imply that bad foil technique is good sabre technique. We have enough mis-educated whackers in women's sabre already.

As for what I do when I have an opponent who hits too hard, it depends on the circumstances. I may: (a) give them a lesson on hitting correctly (b) tell them I won't fence them because they hit too hard (c) fence only brief bouts with them (d) just ignore it and keep in the back of my mind the fact that I will beat them when it matters, at a tournament or (e) lose my temper and hit them hard back. (e) doesn't work very well, though I'll do it occasionally at a tournament when I'm fencing someone who is trying to intimidate me. Usually when it happens at the club, though, it's because my opponent is ignorant or badly trained.

--Delia

[Grendel]

It sounds you are more upset of being beated by this fencer than by the fact that she hurts you when she flicks.

Actually dear Veeco, you are mistaken. I haven't been "beated", as you say, by this fencer; unless, of course, you mean it literally. I win every single time. And, just because a foilist chooses not to bounce around like a boxer or run sprints up and down the piste doesn't mean that he is a classical fencer. If you new how to parry an attack, you wouldn't have to run from it as you apparently do.

Do you read about sports much? Do you watch sports? Have you ever coached? Or learned about different coaching methods?

I have. Men and women are physically different. No suprise right? Pyschologically they are also different. They learn differently, and they are motivated differently. Mia Hamm, she plays soccer, months ago summed it up in an article in the LA Times. I don't have the exact quote but it basically described the differences in men and womens sports. The women are more technical, with a stronger basis in fundamentals. While the men come on so aggressively, relying on athleticism, attitude and power.

She was talking about how men's soccer was very different from women's. But aplied it to tennis, basketball, and many other sports.

Ooooo....what a learned individual!

[lochinvar]

I find it interesting that Grendel comes in with a question, then when people try to honestly and frankly answer it, he/she gets defensive, arguementative, and insulting.

Can anyone say: Troll?

[Grendel]

OK. You win! I apologize that my question regarding being lashed repeatedly with a foil angered so many people, so please forget it. I must admit, however, when I read my initial post, I honestly can't see how it was offensive. Anyway, again, I'm sorry, and most of all, have fun!

By the way, thanks to Big Poppa, HilandDoug, Attila, and Craig for actually answering the question, not getting personal, and not wanting to take my head off for asking it.

[d8m]

Grendel,

Sorry you thought I was lashing out at you in my intial response. I don't know why you thought that.

You still never responded to any of my points with a thought out comment only sarcasm and insults.

My goal was to point out that you shouldn't get upset or take it personally that this girl hits hard. It's not uncommon to run into this type of fencer that all they can do is try to overpower people. You are going to have to deal with it somehow. The above suggestions should help.


As a side note, Veeco doesn't run away, nor does he parry. Although he does know how. He's an counter attacking epee fencer of the lowest kind. Long arms, french grip, and lefty.

[ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: d8m ]

[Boo Boo Too]

Hhhhmm, just a similar experience to Grendel tonight, except this particular opponent was not trying to flick - just managed to whip his foil blade into my limbs (whilst trying to parry) a number of times.

I find rubbing the severely stinging limb furiously with non-weapon hand tends to do too things:
- relieve the pain a bit.
- communicate my pain to my opponent.

This worked tonight: after three savage whippings I don't think that he managed to hit me flat again.

[This wasn't my normal club and I now know why a friend of mine calls it a "hack and slash" club :-( ]

Boo