Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-14-2002, 01:52 PM

This has been knawing at me for a while so I'd like to start making plans to do this.

I work for the Technology Dept. of a school district and I am very interestd in starting a Fencing Club at the High School level. I am looking for input from other people who have started simular items. My primary issues are as follows: Which weapon, equipment, How to run the club, dealing with parents, dealing with competition.

Which Weapon:

Firs of all let me say this, I am not a foilist. I do not like foil too much and I'm not an expert at it. I fence epee and I like and understand epee. I therefore would feel better about the club idea if I started the members straight onto the weapon which I can give the best instruction. I already know the answer to this question but I'd like some more dtailed info on your opinions.

Equipment. I'm not wealthy so I do not intned to fund the equipment myself. Should I make the students buy what they need? Should we do fund raisers? Should I let them borrow some of my older gear until they have decided they like it?

I know of one high school club, South Houston Fencing Club who buys all their gear at a lower price from Blue Guantlet. However, I am more of a fan of Triplette, Allstar and Uhlmann. Should I really worry too much about this? As far as I can think, all that a beginning student of epee should need is a glove ($20-30), Mask ($60-130) Jacket ($45-70-$130), Epee Cord ($16-30) and Electric Epee ($60-130). I would consider dry weapons if it were foil, but epee is too difficult to judge without row. I am therefore thinking that two of the epee buzzers would suffice for lessons and bouting.

How to Run the Club?:

If I do lots of "classroom" type instruction and give them long descriptions of honor, history and proper form and footwork, I won't have many in my group. However, that would be a sufficient way to weed out the people who don't have the heart of really fence. Of course I do think it wise to give all the beginners a chance to do lessons and at least get a feel for what fencing is, but do I want lots of slackers? I am thinking myself that I'd like to add a little more drugery as a way to weed out the people who are there simply to goof off. What do you think?

Parents: My main thought here comes from what I've heard about South Houston High School. I have heard the the coach doesn't do epee because too many parents complained about their children being bruised up. I myself have hardly ever been bruised, of course I wear FIE gear too.

Competition: Being a school district, I don't want to deal with all the forms necessary to do trips, etc. I am thinking of telling my students that if they want to do tournaments, join the Spindletop Cavaliers (my home club) and train and compete with them. Wouldn't that take the responcibility off of me?

Thanks for all your input.

counter riposte · 08-14-2002, 04:56 PM

I am glad that you are thinking of starting a club. It's always great to get paid for what you love to do.

First things first,

STUDENTS
Go to your prospective HS campus and find out if there is a following for the weapon. Districts count upon FTES (Full Time Equivalent Students) to determine whether or not a class is offered within the district. If there is an adequate following, (appx 30 students) a class may be justified by the district (along with moderate equipment expenses, specifically a scoring machine with reels and cords if you plan on having electric weaponry). Unless you have your own box, $1,500USD, Reels $500USD/per, Cords $35USD, you are not going hot. If you aren't interested in starting a class, and just a club, the rest of this might not matter.

LIABILITY
You will have to go to the district's Risk Management office and find out the districts coverage on Accidental Death/Dismemberment. Specifically clauses that would hold the district liable in the event of catastrophic damage (i.e. weapon through mask). If they don't have such coverage, or it is weak, all of your students will have to register as members of the USFA, and be covered under the USFA's insurance policy. Otherwise, they cannot participate. (Contact the USFA for details.) Neither you nor I have a million dollars to spare in case one of these kids impales someone with a sword, find coverage.

LOCATION
Yes, you need a place to fence, preferably in a gym with springboard flooring. If you plan on using HS facilities you will have to find out about the liability factor mentioned above. Fencing off campus on cement is possible, it just works @#@# on the ankles.

EQUIPMENT
Find some grants from your state or local organizations that promote sports, fitness, community, youth activites, and social programs. Tailor your essays toward building community and stress social aspects of fencing as a community builder that encourages fitness (in a state that has a 50% obesity rate among adults). You see where I am going with this, I don't need to elaborate.

You can get your students to purchase thier own equipment, but this is not the way to get students into your program. Start fundraising now. A simple way to do this is to have a wash-a-thon. (PM me for the details.) Other ways would be a bake sale, and you get the point....

For startup equipment, go cheap. As you may already know, fencers have a high burnout rate. Getting high priced equipment that all will have to share (and may not follow later) does not make any sense. You also have to compensate for loss of equipment. (i.e. broken blades, uniforms that grow legs or wear out, and masks that don't pass the punch) If the student wants better equipment, they can purchase it on thier own, just be cheap with yours because you will have to supply for 30 students. Talk to the district that has clubs and see what kind of deal thier purchasing department has worked out, and see if you can get in on the deal.

Saul over at the Post has some fairly cheap Chinese masks that may work for you, but SHOP around. You will need to conserve every dime you have.

If you are considering going hot, the cheapest scoring box out there is about $400 USD from TigerTek. It is a tiny thing which has lights the size of a quarter, does not beep loudly and runs on 9 volt batteries. In otherwords, it's portable and can run ANYWHERE. Check out American Fencers, they have the rights to the box. Unfortunately, reels will be your killer. PM Purple Fencer, he may be able to deal direct to the supplier.

PARENTS
At high school age, you will have to have parents permission to participate in any extracurricular sport. Further, you can't force them to sign. If they don't want thier kids to fence, they are NOT fencing. Either way you will definitely be dealing with the forms issue. If bruises are your parents concerns, you have the same likelihood to be bruised in non-contact sports such as basketball or soccer. Stress social aspects of sport, etc.

I know it seems like a lot of work, but if you are dedicated, you can do it. I believe in you. Good Luck!

[ 08-14-2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: counter riposte ]

Bebop and Rocksteady · 08-14-2002, 06:39 PM

I'm starting a high school fencing program myself. I have a few general ideas that could help...

-Advertising. Set up some posters around the school (with a flashy fencing picture, of course) to make the program more well known. No brainer.

-Equipment. I doubt that getting electrical equipment is neccessary or even possible so early. Like you suggested, fundraisers will help a lot. French grips are the cheapest and the easiest to use, so use those. Also, I've seen them in foil that can be used for left handers and right handers.

-What to teach. Honor, proper form, and footwork are a must. History is not. Also, instead of trying to take on an entire fencing program by yourself, try and look for other experienced fencers around who could help teach epee, and maybe even foil and sabre. Book recommendations for students would be wise, too.

Just some ideas. Remember, the main purpose should be to have fun, not really to create great fencers. But if you can, go for both <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

damianip · 08-14-2002, 07:04 PM

My advice: Get a coach.

There is a lot more to teaching fencing than you could possibly absorb in the time that you have been fencing (That goes for me and most other fencers, too).

Getting beginners off on the right foot is essential. If you don't, they will spend lots of time later "unlearning" things or just quitting in frustration.

Scour any local colleges that may have a fencing program to see if you can involve them. They can view your HS team as a development program for the college teams.

It's a big challenge that you are undertaking. You have my admiration. Don't let the bureaucracy get to you. My son gave up in frustration after two years of fighting.

Good luck.

Paolo

Fencing Mom · 08-14-2002, 08:11 PM

Hi D'Artagnan,

Good luck in your effort, but please reconsider some of your ideas. As a high school teacher, mother of a fencer, and parent sponsor of my kid's high school fencing club, I'd like to offer some suggestions.

First, the teacher in me is insistent: do not introduce drudgery into anything you teach! You need to do the opposite. Show the kids how much you love fencing. Get excited. The first time you talk to them they won't understand fencing terms so use metaphores - talk about offense and defense, war, sneak attacks, whatever it takes to light a fire.

Most teenagers don't give a hoot about honor and history.

Don't worry about weeding out - you instead may have to work hard to recruit. You'll be competing in participation and expectation with the high school glamour sports - football, basketball, baseball. Can you make a parry riposte as exciting as going for a fourth down and inches?

Don't alienate parents, get them on your side. Not only do you need their consent, when it comes to fencing, you need their deep pockets.

Finally, I have to ask, if a kid is not going to compete in tournaments and represent his or her high school, why would he or she join your club? If it's to learn to fence, the kid would do better in a regular club with a professional coach, competing in divisional tournaments. But competing on a team for your high school, now that's FUN.

"My school's better than your school, I can fence better than you . . . "

swordsen · 08-14-2002, 08:14 PM

Bebop, a french grip cannot properly be used by both a right hander and a left. It can be held but not used in the right way. get the right grip for the hand.

D'Art, go to the coaches college. Start making your plans but don't start teaching until you know what and how to teach it. By your own admission you have not been doing this long enough to teach kids to do it right.

Bebop and Rocksteady · 08-15-2002, 08:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Bebop, a french grip cannot properly be used by both a right hander and a left. It can be held but not used in the right way. get the right grip for the hand.
<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/1PE_beginners_foil.gif" alt=" - " />

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-15-2002, 10:11 AM

Thank you all for your replies. I do intend to attend the coaches clinics which run yearly in San Antonio before I do this. I don't think I'll be strating the club for at least 1-2 years.

damianip · 08-15-2002, 12:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bebop and Rocksteady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Bebop, a french grip cannot properly be used by both a right hander and a left. It can be held but not used in the right way. get the right grip for the hand.
<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/1PE_beginners_foil.gif" alt=" - " /><hr /></blockquote>However the cant on the blade is wrong for both hands.

Paolo

epeemike81 · 08-15-2002, 12:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bebop and Rocksteady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Bebop, a french grip cannot properly be used by both a right hander and a left. It can be held but not used in the right way. get the right grip for the hand.
<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/1PE_beginners_foil.gif" alt=" - " /><hr /></blockquote>see how that grip is not straight, but rather has some curves designed to make it more comfortable??

well, as you may expect, those curves are different for righties and lefties.

As one person I know points out about rightie v. leftie french grips, "they, like pistol grips, are "stereo isomers" of each other."

-m

counter riposte · 08-15-2002, 12:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Thank you all for your replies. I do intend to attend the coaches clinics which run yearly in San Antonio before I do this. I don't think I'll be strating the club for at least 1-2 years.<hr /></blockquote>Keep us posted D'art.

mfp · 08-15-2002, 12:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
see how that grip is not straight, but rather has some curves designed to make it more comfortable??

well, as you may expect, those curves are different for righties and lefties.

As one person I know points out about rightie v. leftie french grips, "they, like pistol grips, are "stereo isomers" of each other."
<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, but that grip is not asymmetric. That particular "universal handle Beginners Foil" posted by B&R is purposely sold by Leon Paul as "a foil designed specfically for clubs, as it can be used by both left and right handed fencers."

Of course, like most compromises, it probably wouldn't be ideal for either party, lefty or righty. [Not to mention problems with any cant angles]

[ 08-15-2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

epeemike81 · 08-15-2002, 01:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
see how that grip is not straight, but rather has some curves designed to make it more comfortable??

well, as you may expect, those curves are different for righties and lefties.

As one person I know points out about rightie v. leftie french grips, "they, like pistol grips, are "stereo isomers" of each other."
<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, but that grip is not asymmetric. That particular "universal handle Beginners Foil" posted by B&R is purposely sold by Leon Paul as "a foil designed specfically for clubs, as it can be used by both left and right handed fencers."<hr /></blockquote>Then it isn't a French grip.

mfp · 08-15-2002, 01:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
Then it isn't a French grip.<hr /></blockquote>Nor did LP or I refer to it as one. I guess pedants would refer to it as a symmetrical non-orthopedic grip.

While B&R did refer to it as a "French grip", I believe his point was that there are symmetrical grips available intended for use by either right handed or left handed fencers. And indeed there are. And like any grip, they have their own advantages and disadvantages.

[ 08-15-2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

mfp · 08-15-2002, 02:14 PM

Since the USFA's mission is promote the sport of fencing in U.S., one would think/hope that USFA would have lots of resource materials that are tailor made for people interested in starting clubs in their school or community. [But then again with USFA that might be hoping for too much]

The USFA's "Strategic Plan" mentions an action item to develop a "Fencing in a Box" kit to distribute to community based organizations interested in fencing.

I'd think things like organizing checklists, details about insurance options, samples of successful proposals used by other schools and clubs, scholarship info, etc, would be sensible things to find in a "Fencing in a Box" kit. If that's what the USFA has, great -- you could get it and use it. If their kit isn't much more than PR material and USFA membership applications, please get on their case and let them know what you, the target audience, could really use. [Please report back what the "kit" contains]

[ 08-15-2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

oiuyt · 08-15-2002, 05:31 PM

For that matter I know someone who advocates (and at least for a while was using in his club) sabre grips on beginners' foils. Completely ambidextrous. Not that _I'D_ recommend it, but it is another option.

D'art- do Coaches College in addition to the PAFA courses. I've been to CC and I've heard good things about PAFA. You can do both rather than just choose between them.

-B

Gav · 08-15-2002, 07:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> symmetrical non-orthopedic grip <hr /></blockquote>I like that.