Fencing Morality

[Krazyhades]

Fortunately, I have not yet been in this position, but it is a possibility. What would you do if you were at a tournament in the DEs, and was up against another fencer from your team, and they had a substantial chance of winning/doing very well, but you, because you have practiced with them and know how they fence, stand a good chance of beating them? Would you let them win so that somebody from your club wins/does really really well? Or would you try your hardest, defeat them, and then almost certainly lose within the next couple DEs?
Basically, would you take away a chance for your team to get a/another high placement by doing your best, or let the teammate win so that the entire team does better overall?

I repeat, I have not yet been in this situation, I just want to know how the fencers here feel about it.

[Feltan]

Easy.

I always fence to win.

If I am fencing a child or a newbie, I will go half-speed or slower to be instructive in a practice environment.

In competition, I always go all out.

Regards,
Feltan

[Krazyhades]

Same here, at least in the past. But I just thought up this hypothetical situation (and it actually is hypothetical, not from experience). I think I would fence to win, and hope my teammate is a good enough sport to accept that I would try my best.

[Inquartata]

I voted "other". There's no option for "Beat them and then keep winning". The idea that one is doomed after that next bout is one that has too often proved incorrect in my experience.

Plus, it allows me to assert that the poll is you-know-what.

Seriously, I don't even respond well to my coach when occasionaly he asks me to let a given opponent have a few touches because "we want him to keep coming back". Either they earn a touch or they don't. Although like Feltan I may not exactly exert myself to the fullest against a novice: I'll work on footwork or practice something, and if they get the touches they get the touches. On their own.

I know that I'd hate to be patronized, so I won't do it to others.

[dreamer90024]

I would definitely try to win, I would never throw a bout. To me, unless we are fencing as a team and only the team as a whole wins, club issues have to be put aside on strip. However I disagree with the option of going on to lose. It's a sign of a bad mental game if you give up a bout as lost before you even fence it.

[Krazyhades]

I meant going on to probably lose. As in maybe a c and under tournament, and you are a U, your opponent (from your club) is a high D or low C, and there are a whole bunch of mid-level c's. While it is still possible to win, you can safely assume that your buddy from your club has a better chance.

[Steve Khinoy]

Fence your best -- it might be your day to excel!

According to the scenario, your teammate is better than you, so he's likely to beat you anyway. If he's having an off day, maybe your chances are better than his. If he's not having an off day and you beat him, maybe you're having a career day.

Your only possible hesitation might come in an event where individual results count toward an overall team score, but I don't know of any such. When tournaments were fenced by the pool system throughout, teammates (and others) used to arrange to throw bouts to help each other's chances--but that's why they changed the tournament format. DE's are about who's better on a given day and should be fenced that way.

You don't always have to fence all out in DE's because only the win, not the touch score, mattes-- against an inferior opponent, you might want to save energy for the next round. But you always want to fence well enough to win.

[Krazyhades]

I stated in the 1st post that you have a fair chance of beating him, even though he is a higher rank/better fencer, because you practice with him and know his strenghts and weaknesses.

[prototoast]

You fence to win. If he has weaknesses and you know how to beat him because of it, then it is only a matter of time until other fencers discover those as well. That's his problem, not yours.

[keropie]

Always fence to win, because doing anything else lessens the value of the sport, and any win that might result. Additionally, fencing to not win is indeed collusion/dishonest fencing, and black cards are bad.

In competition, if I'm fencing someone I know is much worse than me, I honestly just try to end it quickly. It's a competition for the luvva pete! So, fence to win. Don't lower yourself, and please don't drag the sport down by doing anything else.

[Ordway]

I would do my very best to win. Part of becoming a better fencer is dealing with teammates who know your weaknesses!

I voted "other" instead of the first option because I would NOT fence that bout with the idea that I would definitely lose soon thereafter. You never know what could happen. I do my best when I focus exclusively on fencing each bout without thinking about the next one. When I'm in the right state of mind, I don't even know what round I'm in - I just want to know who I'm fencing next, and next, and next

In the local competitions in my area, literally half the competitors are from my club, so I'm up against teammates all the time. The ones who have shots at winning the whole thing can generally crush me like a bug, so it's really not an issue. But if I came up against one of them and they were having a bad day, I would gladly take the win and do the best I could in the next rounds.

[stealingophelia]

I meant going on to probably lose. As in maybe a c and under tournament, and you are a U, your opponent (from your club) is a high D or low C, and there are a whole bunch of mid-level c's. While it is still possible to win, you can safely assume that your buddy from your club has a better chance.

if you can beat your teammate who is a high d or low c, in a c and under you shouldnt be destined to lost in the next few des

[MyrddinsPrecint]

there is a girl on my team who regularly beats me in practice, because she can pick up on one or two problems i have that i usually don't go out of my way to avoid during practice.

i do significantly better than her at usfa tournaments however.

one might think that were we placed in a situation where she could possibly knock me out, she might want to throw it------------ but it's not actually valid, because when in a competitive senario against her, i usually beat her.



there's always a next fencing tournament. if you try your hardest, you force your teammate (in this hypothetical) to try their hardest. which will only improve them, and force them to work on their problems.

and you never know how it being a real competition will affect people...........

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Now, here's another question....

You come out of pools seeded 1st, your teammate comes out 16th, and this is a tournament to qualify for nationals. It turns out that the top 9 will qualify. Therefore, if you win, you qualify and your teammate doesn't, but if he wins, you both qualify. Do you throw the bout? Now, what if you have a chance, if you win the tournament you get a rating increase, does that change your mind?

I've had this happen to me a few times, once while being that high seed and once as the low seed. I took out my teammate hoping to increase my rating and then the same teammate beat me a year later when he was seeded higher looking for the rating. Having been on the recieving side of it I now think I would now throw the bout....but sometimes competition gets the better of me, so I don't know.

[Aqua_volans]

screw the team. when it comes to a fight, its war. no mercy. all who stand before must die.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


Check rules t.88 and t.105.

This a 4th group offence, immediate BLACK card.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson, M-rated referee (epee) in the Swedish Fencing Federation

[schlager7]

On strip, at a tournament, there is only fencing to defeat your opponent. Anything else is an insult to your opponent. If they are a team-mate, they should get over losing to you (they, no doubt, expected you to get over losing to THEM).

If the team has issues with that, I'd look for another team.

I think I would just be steamed to win and find I had done so because my adversary, for any reason, threw the bout. It would mean my victory meant nothing.

[Larrison]

Always fence your best --

[Schiavona]

Always fence your best --

This is the true fencing morality!

[swordsen]

I used to carry a button in my fencing bag that read "You have to beat me to win."
I would toss it to team mates or students who drew in DEs. I have never given away a bout.