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Thread: Different types of jackets?

  1. #1
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    Different types of jackets?

    All,

    I have a question about differrent jacket styles I have seen. The first, sold by Leon paul and others, has a flap in the front that is connected to a buckle in the back. I have also seen a jacket type that has no apparent flap or buckle and is shorter. Are there two different syles, or is it the method of wearing them?

    Spence
    SpencerM

  2. #2
    Armorer DHCJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerM
    All,

    I have a question about differrent jacket styles I have seen. The first, sold by Leon paul and others, has a flap in the front that is connected to a buckle in the back. I have also seen a jacket type that has no apparent flap or buckle and is shorter. Are there two different syles, or is it the method of wearing them?

    Spence
    You are probably talking about a Sabre Jacket used for Non-Electric Fencing. The Jacket was On-Target and the Breaches Off-Target.
    Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr.
    DHCJr@juno.com

    To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)

    Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.

  3. #3
    Senior Member rcmatthews's Avatar
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    I'll note that these jackets are illegal for competition, but you can by one from allstar/uhlmann. I think they look much more agressive than the other model.
    Ich steige ab, Hab keine Zeit, Muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden, Wollen auch geritten werden

    C'est pas la chute, c'est l'atterrissage.

  4. #4
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    Actually, I saw it being worn during foil (non-competition). It had a clean look since there was no apparent flap or strap.

    I have searched various equipment sites but cannot find it.

    Spence
    SpencerM

  5. #5
    Senior Member sabreur's Avatar
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    I am fascinated by the statement that a sabre jacket is not legal for competition--I have an Allstar FIE sabre jacket that I've worn for FIE satellite and German national competitions, and no one has said a word about it.

    For that matter, most sabre fencers on this side of the lake wear sabre jackets (without the croupade).

    If there is a rule against it, it is another example of USFA silliness.

    MR
    Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

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    There is only a rule against it in Epee and non-electric foil.

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    Armorer DHCJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabreur
    I am fascinated by the statement that a sabre jacket is not legal for competition--I have an Allstar FIE sabre jacket that I've worn for FIE satellite and German national competitions, and no one has said a word about it.

    For that matter, most sabre fencers on this side of the lake wear sabre jackets (without the croupade).

    If there is a rule against it, it is another example of USFA silliness.

    MR
    There is a rule, but it is a FIE rule. But luckily for you it is a rule only when fencing Epee, a Sabre jacket is illegal for FIE competitions (M.25.4)
    Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr.
    DHCJr@juno.com

    To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)

    Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHCJr
    There is a rule, but it is a FIE rule. But luckily for you it is a rule only when fencing Epee, a Sabre jacket is illegal for FIE competitions (M.25.4)
    Then again, over your sabre jacket, you have to wear a sabre lamé, which has the cuissard strap.

  9. #9
    Senior Member stealingophelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Khinoy
    Then again, over your sabre jacket, you have to wear a sabre lamé, which has the cuissard strap.
    yo im from staten island too!
    where do you fence?

  10. #10
    Posting Hound Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Khinoy
    Then again, over your sabre jacket, you have to wear a sabre lamé, which has the cuissard strap.
    Read the rule (emphasis mine):

    "4. Jacket. At all weapons, for men and women, the lower edge of
    the jacket must overlap the knickers by at least 10 cm when the
    fencer is in the on-guard position (cf. m.28, m.34).

    The jacket must include a lining making a double thickness of
    material for the sleeve down to the elbow of the sword arm and
    covering the flank up to the region of the armpit. At épée the
    fencer is required to wear a regulation jacket, which must cover
    the whole of the surface of the trunk.

    Women’s equipment must, furthermore, include breast protectors
    made of metal or some other rigid material."

    Now...as Donald would say...UNDERSTAND the rule...what purpose does the cuissard serve? If fencing sabre dry and you life your arms up, the jacket rides up...if the hit misses the jacket, no touch.

    For electric there's another reason...safety.

    The cuissard keeps the jacket down...and helps close the opening at the bottom...yes, you have the cuissard on the sabre lame, but requiring it on the jacket as well adds anoher layer...a blade might go up the lame, but if it doesn't go up the jacket, the jacket can do it'j job of protecting you.

    Sure, it's highly unlikely....but so's getting your arm pierced by an unbroken sabre blade, a blade going through the wire hole in the glove, or a broken blade tip flying around and breaking a light bulb (happened at Beverly Hills yesterday)
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

    Going to your first tournament? Read "Choose yer weapon, Laddie (or: Dude, where's my foil?)"

  11. #11
    Senior Member rcmatthews's Avatar
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    It appears I was wrong. When I purchase my FIE jacket, i will definetly be going with the strapless model.

    I asked this question before, and I thought I was told it was not legal.
    Ich steige ab, Hab keine Zeit, Muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden, Wollen auch geritten werden

    C'est pas la chute, c'est l'atterrissage.

  12. #12
    Needs to get Outside Inquartata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
    If fencing sabre dry and you life your arms up, the jacket rides up...if the hit misses the jacket, no touch.
    Unless you're Walter Dragonetti, you are not very likely to be flapping your "wings" while fencing. ( And he does epee, not sabre. )

    This seems to me to be a very large stretch ( ) as rationales go...

    Anyway, who fences dry sabre anymore?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
    Read the rule (emphasis mine):

    "4. Jacket. At all weapons, for men and women, the lower edge of
    the jacket must overlap the knickers by at least 10 cm when the
    fencer is in the on-guard position (cf. m.28, m.34).
    Now...as Donald would say...UNDERSTAND the rule...what purpose does the cuissard serve? If fencing sabre dry and you life your arms up, the jacket rides up...if the hit misses the jacket, no touch.

    For electric there's another reason...safety.

    The cuissard keeps the jacket down...and helps close the opening at the bottom...yes, you have the cuissard on the sabre lame, but requiring it on the jacket as well adds anoher layer...a blade might go up the lame, but if it doesn't go up the jacket, the jacket can do it'j job of protecting you.

    Sure, it's highly unlikely....but so's getting your arm pierced by an unbroken sabre blade, a blade going through the wire hole in the glove, or a broken blade tip flying around and breaking a light bulb (happened at Beverly Hills yesterday)
    There's nothing about a 10cm overlap that can't be offered by a sufficiently long sabre jacket without a cuissard. As long as that requirement is met, there's no other mention of a requirement in sabre.

  14. #14
    Senior Member sabreur's Avatar
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    And it was never a requirement for dry sabre either--we all wore our lovely sans crouper jackets then too.

    The line about a blade sliding up is so much hogwash. The crouper and the extra material around the crotch are hardly tight enough to keep a blade out--I would suspect their purpose has much more to do with protecting against straight point attacks to that region--a risk in foil and epee, but not in sabre.

    To get back on another soapbox, the single most dangerous piece of FIE-acceptable sabre equipment is one of those wretched gloves with the lame cuff--the opening for the body wire exposes the inner wrist, with all the associated blood vessels, tendons, etc. The wrist is a common target in sabre for both cuts and point attacks, and the risk of a point, broken blade, etc., entering the body wire opening is significant--far more significant than any risk associated with wearing a sabre jacket to fence sabre.
    Last edited by sabreur; 01-10-2006 at 05:40 AM.
    Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

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    Senior Member reawl's Avatar
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    Ummmm

    Not to burst the bubble here, but the USFA rules do consider the groin to be a "vital" region (as per Appendix A). Since your sabre lame isn't designed specifically for safety (that's why you wear a jacket AND a lame) you're proboably going to be hard pressed to convince an armorer that your jacket is legal regarding safety concerns.

    Rules aside, do you really want LESS equipment protecting your junk? Get the flap with the crotch strap, there's a reason it was added and why most of the population uses it.
    You have two opponents, the one standing on the strip, and the one standing to the side of it.

  16. #16
    Senior Member rcmatthews's Avatar
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    Thats what your fencing pants are for. And, as Sabreur states, most people on the other side of the pond don't wear it (people being sabre fencers, the only ones that matter).
    Ich steige ab, Hab keine Zeit, Muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden, Wollen auch geritten werden

    C'est pas la chute, c'est l'atterrissage.

  17. #17
    Needs to get Outside Inquartata's Avatar
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    And your cup beneath your fencing pants. Honestly, anyone who doesn't wear one of those obviously isn't all that concerned with his package anyway, and the "extra protection" of the cuissard seems an odd thing to insist upon in that case...

  18. #18
    Senior Member reawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmatthews
    And, as Sabreur states, most people on the other side of the pond don't wear it ...
    If "most people on the other side of the pond" jumped off a bridge...?
    You have two opponents, the one standing on the strip, and the one standing to the side of it.

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    We'd have acquatic fencing, given how much influence our continent has on the sport...

  20. #20
    Senior Member Feltan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK
    We'd have acquatic fencing, given how much influence our continent has on the sport...
    Speak quietly, if Roche hears that idea it might promt new ideas for favorable television coverage.

    Regards,
    Feltan

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