Foil Situation Help needed

[Duellist USA]

Ok...

I've got two for the board to ponder and discuss...

Foil
Situation One

Fencer A Attacks
Fencer B gets hit

One light

Director calls halt

Fencer A does a victory bounce/hop/ whatever ya want to call it....landing with his back foot in front of his front foot exclaming "YES" while he does this clearly celebrating

Director annuls touch Stating fencer fleched

Situation Two

Fencer A Attacks
Fencer B Misses Parry

One light

Director Calls Halt

Fencer A stands and walks forward two steps

Director annuls touch once again stating fencer fleched

Argument insues stating that Fencer A took the steps AFTER the halt was called

Director agrees steps were taken after the halt...

Changes call and annuls touch stating fencer was out of control

[telkanuru]

um, since when is the fleche illegal in foil?

[FencingKitten]

Are you sure we have all the details? No one is THAT crazy.

The only argument I can see is that fencers are supposed to, if I recall correctly, hold ground and wait quietly until the director makes his/her call.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Ummm...pardon my saber-based ignorance, but isn't the fleche legal in foil?

[MikeHarm]

Fleche is illegal in foil for college fencing. If done like described it sounds like a biased director to me. I've heard director's talk about the politics of foot crossover calls in sabre fencing before which is one of the reasons I'm not into sabre fencing, it sounds like its just as bad in foil for the college guys.

[KD5MDK]

I think in case 1 I would demand the card for crossing of the feet, and then appealed to the Bout Committee. That would be a ton of fun to go over with them.

[telkanuru]

Fleche is illegal in foil for college fencing.

High school, perhaps? Definitely not college...

[CvilleFencer]

I have heard that the fleche is not legal in some high schools. NJ among them if I recall correctly. Either the referee was on some great drugs, really well paid by fencer B, or he was a (probably horrible) high school referee that got drafted into a USFA tourney and did not bother to learn the rules. Or I guess the other option was that this was a high school bout in which case the fleche may not be legal. Still, you can dance a jig as far as I am concerned after the touche, I just prefer you do it quietly!

Either way, if it went down like you describe, as long as it was sport fencing and not some horrible insidious plot to get classical fencing into high schools, the referee in question should have been slowly tortured for days to learn the price for such incompetence. After all slow torture would be nicer that what a lot of fencers I know would do to him in that situation. Myself included!

Oh, and unless this was on the set of a film or a play somewhere, this poll is flawed. Unless Steven Spielberg was observing, there should not have been any directors in the room and even if there were, they should not have had any input in the bout. The Referee overules some egomaniac hollywood director any day of the week!

[oiuyt]

Aw, don't keep him in NJ, I want to fence here OCCASIONALLY!

Although as long as he stays with HS meets I might only mind on some day when I'm off recruiting/evaluating and have to be aesthetically offended by seeing such a display. I guess that wouldn't be too insufferable.

MikeH: As mentioned previously the fleche is definitely NOT illegal in college (NCAA or any club competitions I've seen/heard of). NJ HS is a different matter. I think I recall the existance of some other area where HS banned the fleche as well.

-B

[Schiavona]

Either the referee was on some great drugs,*snip*

This was my first thought, too!

[muaddib]

Since fleches are legal and crossovers are legal in foil before the halt and everything is legal after the halt (well almost everything ) then I think this director wasn't a director. Maybe a terrorist in disguise, trying to terrorise the fencing community!

[Duellist USA]

Sorry I should have clarified that this was a high school bout..and yes in NJ the fleche is illegal at the high school level...

Rick

[max_mz]

heresy in american highschools !

i think the director and whoever implements stuff like the idea of fleches being illegal in foil should be excommunicated - if not worse *lol* ...

[Joe biebel]

Okay, let's assume that the flesche is (high school rules in NJ) illegal here. The touches stand. This is a case where the touch is the end of the fencing action. The "infraction" here does not exist, as it is not during the fencing phrase. Certain actions like corps-a-corps, dangerous or vidictive actions, unsportsmanlike conduct, or cursing out the referee after a touch is scored, will still be infractions. However, actions like crossing the feet over, leaving the side of the strip, retreating off the end of the strip, etc. after a touch is scored, are not infractions.

While it is possible that the referee was biased, it is more likely that he/she suffered from a lack of competency. It's funny (I think) to defend a person on the grounds that they are not competent.

[rudd]

Bad refereeing.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Wth this ref, would turning your back to walk back to en garde after a touch be considered turning your back, and therefore merit a card?

[jeff]

The director is a loony. Yes, fleche is illegal in NJ high school fencing, but Fencer A didn't fleche, and his alleged fleche is 'apres halt'. Sheesh.

[Gav]

Why is the fleche 'illegal' in NJ? Surely the best way to prepare young athletes to sport is to expose them to the sport as it is everywhere?

[jeff]

(Didn't we have a thread on the fleche for HS fencing last year?) I think the rationale was that many HS fencers weren't skilled enough to do this without crashing into one another, so it was removed for safety sake. I personally have no strong opinion on this one way or the other. FWIW, it was also illegal in New York fencing back in my day (anyone know if it still is?), and the same justification was probably used in both states. It doesn't seem to have prevented the development of the Westbrooks, Axelrods and so forth.

[Gav]

(Didn't we have a thread on the fleche for HS fencing last year?)

I think we might have done but I couldn't remember the answer with regard to kids.